Ep #36: Trauma and Authenticity with Danielle Cohen

Hey, this is Lindsay Dotzlaf and you are listening to Mastering Coaching Skills episode 36.

To really compete in the coaching industry, you have to be great at coaching. That’s why every week, I will be answering your questions, sharing my stories, and offering tips and advice so you can be the best at what you do. Let’s get to work.

Oh my goodness, I’m so excited for you to be here today. I am having a conversation with someone that I think you are going to fall in love with. She is a photographer, she is a visibility coach, and she just has a lot to say about a lot of things that I think you’re going to find so interesting.

We go off on a couple tangents. She even tells you what to think about when you’re hiring a photographer for you coaching business when having brand photography done. So we talk a little bit about photography, but mostly we talk about visibility, about coaching, about trauma in coaching, about anxiety. And we just really go there. I love it. We had so much fun and a deep conversation. So I hope that you love it as much as I did. Here you are, Danielle Cohen.

—

Lindsay: Hello, welcome to the podcast. I’m so excited you’re here. Can you introduce yourself? Tell the listeners your name and what you do.

Danielle: I’m so excited to be here too. I am Daniel Cohen. I’m a visibility coach and brand photographer. Which basically means that I spend my time witnessing and reflecting back.

Lindsay: Yeah, I was thinking, so I’ve worked with you in a couple different ways as a photographer and as a coach. And I was really thinking about this this morning before I had you on about kind of like how there are similarities between those two things, I think. Just curious what your opinion is on that.

Danielle: Oh, I agree entirely. I mean, yes, particularly, you know, as with everything it depends on what type of photography and it depends on what type of coaching. But because my primary focus, no pun intended, with photography is brand photography. Although even when I’ve done other things this is the truth. I see myself much more as a witness than an artist.

And so my intention, my goal, what I’m holding is to for the most part, get myself up. It’s like twofold. One, I want you to be as you as possible. So I want to do what I can to create that opportunity and remove any barriers that will keep you from doing that. And then I want to photograph that.

So I really just want to be kind of this sacred, quiet- not that I’m quiet- witness. But quiet in the sense that not getting in the way of your youness.

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: And the coaching is the same thing, right? Like, yeah, let’s get more of you. Because that’s really, I think, at the root of it what we’re all here for?

Lindsay: Yes, I think that is so true. And that’s kind of what I was thinking, whether it’s brand photography, or really any kind of photography. My favorite photography, whether I’m being photographed, which isn’t always my favorite, or be looking at photographs is just seeing someone and it looking like them. It’s like, “Oh, this is the person I know.”

And you definitely captured that, I know, when you photographed me. And yeah, I think that probably plays a big role in you being an amazing coach.

Danielle: Thank you.

Lindsay: Because I feel that in you as a coach too just being in your mastermind. And we’ll talk a little more about that and specifically more about what you do as a coach. But being in your mastermind I just have this feeling of like everyone show up just as you are. There’s no need to alter, there’s no need to pretend to be someone else. Just come as you are.

Danielle: Yeah, that is the point. And now that can be messy and that can be a little harder to quantify sometimes. But that’s my point for sure. I do just for whatever reason want to say that I would say the majority of photographers are artists. And that is something that I have mad respect for.

So my way is different, but it’s not to say that that isn’t- You know, the primary thing when you are becoming a photographer is people want you to define your aesthetic. And there may be a similarity here too, at least with some coaching and some coaching styles, right?

But yeah, so you can look out at the world and you can identify a photographer’s particular style pretty quickly. It has to do with oftentimes their lighting, their editing. There’s usually like three descriptive words that nail it. And that’s beautiful and it’s more about their art than about the person in it. And useful in many ways.

But I tend to like to point that out because if you are looking for brand photography it’s different. You want to make sure who you work with is willing to shoot to your aesthetic and your brand aesthetic, not theirs. That may or may not be something super relevant in this conversation.

Lindsay: I think it’s so useful though, right? I mean, everyone who’s listening here, even though I don’t specifically talk about business building strategies a lot of the time. Anyone that’s listening that’s a coach and has their own business, I am sure they have hired some sort of photographer or have thought about it.

So yeah, I think that, actually, I would love to take just a couple minutes. And is there anything you want to add to that? So anyone that might be looking to hire a photographer or thinking about it. And this isn’t even what we planned on really talking about today.

Danielle: No, it’s not.

Lindsay: But I think it’s so useful.

Danielle: It is. I will say this is actually like the biggest hack, I guess. That’s such a funny word. But there are incredible photographers everywhere. And especially in light of COVID you may want one in your neighborhood.

So the thing is, is that you want to find someone whose work you love. And then you want to have a conversation with them that’s really honest. And ask them if they’re willing to be creatively directed. And just tell them, “What I mean by that is I really need you to shoot to my brand aesthetic.”

Now that means you have to know your brand aesthetic. You have to know what you’re going for. What is the story you want to tell? And how do you want people to feel when they see your images?

Because the thing is, is photos, they’re not truth tellers, they’re storytellers. That doesn’t mean that they can’t be honest. But we all have had images where what it looks like had nothing to do with what we felt like at that moment, right?

So when we’re going to out to create images for businesses the more intentional we can be about, who am I really looking at when I look at that lens? Who am I calling in? Who am I speaking to? And what do I most hope that they feel and want to evoke?

If you work with a brand photographer who really gets that, I’m going to hold that with you. And I’m going to do what I can to help evoke that from you. But you can certainly do that with a lovely, brilliant photographer in your neighborhood. You just need to be more specific about what you know, you want to create, and then ask them if they’re willing to also create a visual, you know, edit to your style.

They might be dark and moody and your brand might be really kind of this upbeat, bright, and shiny or funky thing, right? So can they strip away the grain and whatever other visual choices they’re making to just highlight yours. It’s a really big ask, actually, depending on how attached they are to the way that they shoot. But it’s certainly worth an ask if you want someone local.

Lindsay: I have definitely worked with both types. And I think that, again, like you said earlier, both are great. There’s nothing wrong with either. But when it comes to my business, of course, I want photos to look like what I’m used to using on my social media, on my website.

And one thing I love about you and I think this is so fun, I just want to mention it. I messaged you at some point, I don’t even remember exactly why this happened. But I messaged you and it was towards the beginning of quarantine. And I was a little panicked. And I was like I had a photo shoot booked and it had to be canceled. And I desperately need photos. And I was like really in the space of needing photos.

And you said, “Oh, easy. Have your kids take them and be willing to take so many, like thousands of photos.” I forget how you worded it. And I just was like, “Oh, well that seems so easy.” And not that that is a great solution for a website or something where you need –

Danielle: It can be when you need to.

Lindsay: Yeah, I did it. And I will say it was actually really fun to see how my kids see me, right?

Danielle: Yes.

Lindsay: And they would say, “I love this photo. And I love this photo.” And it was like, “Oh, really? Okay.” It just opened my mind to a different way of like, “Oh, they just see me differently than I see myself.”

Danielle: Yes, it’s so true. I’ve had my sons, and my daughter now, take a few pictures of me now and then. And here’s what I have noticed, I love them but I notice how I look at them. And it’s not always the same energy.

So for example, my son did some photos for me and I put it on a sales page. They were well done photos; he did a good job. I set everything up and basically it was like, “Here you go.” And we have a really fun relationship. But I couldn’t take them seriously. Like every time I saw the images I thought, “Okay, this is not really working.” There was this adoringness that felt so motherly, right?

Lindsay: Yeah.

Danielle: So, I mean, photos are really fun that way in terms of getting to see how another sees us. But also what our gaze is, which is a whole other thing in terms of the photographer you work with. Do you have relationship and rapport with them?

Again, it can be very utilitarian and you hire someone down the road that’s nice, but maybe they just think you’re a weirdo coach and you just think they’re a good shooter. And then you bring someone to the shoot, or you just really tap into if you’re able to do that.

We tend to feel like all of those types of things fall into the realm of being inauthentic. But we’re multilayered, multifaceted people, right? If I’m like, no makeup and jeans and a t-shirt most of the time. And then I decided to get dressed up and get my hair done and do makeup some of the time. One isn’t more true than the other necessarily. Maybe for some that identity is super wrapped up.

But what about I get to be any of those things? And I get to choose when I am. I mean, this is where the visibility stuff and the photography do start to overlap or intersect in terms of giving ourselves freedom to be who we are and not having to have that be singular or binary for that matter.

Lindsay: Yes. I love that. And one of the things that really, I think, draws me to you is you and I have had a couple conversations around this with myself. And you’ve really helped me see it’s actually okay that I love to not wear makeup and wear t-shirts sometimes. And it’s not, not me when I’m doing a photo shoot and I’m having my hair done and feeling very fancy. I also love that.

And I think that in the past, I’ve made that a problem sometimes. Whether it’s for photos, or just in my life, or in my business. And the couple of conversations that you and I have heard about it have been really powerful for me. I’m just like, “Oh, these are actually all parts of me. And it’s okay to just embrace all of them.”

Danielle: Yeah. And the thing is, is I think that yes, sure you’ve made that a problem in your mind. But I do want to also make room a little bit for the fact that, particularly as women, these are made problems for us. We’re supposed to look certain ways. And then we’re supposed to work really hard to not look those ways in order to be able to carve out space for ourselves in a different venue that we really weren’t invited to.

So we’re supposed to look like we have our shit really together. And we’re really pro, because we don’t really belong and aren’t invited in the professional world. So again, I think it’s important to just make room for it’s not just our mind, it’s like a collective mind that we’re up against with these things.

Lindsay: Yeah, I can see that. I think that I certainly have had ideas of what, for example, my website photos are supposed to look like. Or my whatever photos. And I think that was one of the things that was really fun about having my kids take the photos.

And again, we took so many and I think I used maybe two. But really what was so fun about it is just seeing, “Oh, this is a side of me that I don’t usually capture in photos.” And how fun is that? It was like a more playful, a little bit silly. And, again, I didn’t use them everywhere. But it was just interesting to capture that and just really own like, and this is me too.

Danielle: And this is me too. I think that’s one of the most beautiful phrases. And this is me too.

Lindsay: I love that. So tell me, and I don’t actually know this story, but how did you kind of get into coaching? How long have you been coaching? How did that come about?

Danielle: That’s a great question. It’s a great, long journey question. It’s a twisty thing because I don’t have a short concise answer without kind of, I guess, giving the context. So I’ll do that.

Lindsay: I love it.

Danielle: I started, and when I say started, I mean really young. My initial inclination in terms of vocation was in the healing arts, and mostly in like natural healing arts. And this was because I had parents that were sick.

Both parents had different things they were dealing with physically. One it was life threatening all the time. And the other one it was a more functional yet there was a fragility in it. And as an only child I was very focused on them. And that was my first place, as early as 10 years old I remember sitting in the health food store, reading about herbs.

And yet I also have this inclination towards business, even though I would have absolutely told you that wasn’t the case at the time. Because I was resistant to most things that sounded like money or capitalism, not that I had that language for it. And yet I was in accounting from the time I was a young teenager. In one way or another it kept showing up.

So through the years, these two things sort of kept manifesting in my work life. I was either doing something in the realm of accounting or something in the realm of the healing arts. Massage therapy, doula, energy work, all kinds of things like that.

Photography was something that I absolutely loved as a gesture. But I never saw myself as an artist, or a creative, number one. And I had this really limited view of what it meant to be a photographer. And that to me meant that you spent the day sitting in a studio doing posed images that were just about surface and appearance. And that all just wasn’t even within the realm of something I would consider.

And yet I continued to take pictures because they created this evidence of life that felt really important in a way that sometimes helped tether me to something much more uplifting than what my brain and my nervous system oriented towards.

So anxiety and depression hit hard and early for me and were very intense. And photography, you know, without me knowing it, I wasn’t like doing art therapy. But it was in many ways this opportunity for me to actually see beauty that even I couldn’t deny. Even though I couldn’t necessarily see it as it was happening.

And in all of the jobs that I did, no matter what it was, coaching was there. And I think that this is true for so many of us. And again, especially as women. And I think that coaching in many ways would fall under the category of women’s work, right?

That’s supporting, championing, strategizing, reflecting, witnessing, holding space and holding a vision that someone can’t right in this moment see for themselves, but we see so clearly. This is the stuff that for eons, women in particular have done and would never have been paid for.

Lindsay: That’s so interesting. I’ve never thought about it like that. But yes, I can definitely see that.

Danielle: So it’s really audacious. I think this is one of the big triggers that comes up. One of the big discomforts and activating places that comes up when a woman is, especially if she’s transitioning from something that has a label, or an accreditation to it into something that’s like coaching. It can feel so scary.

And I think, in many ways, even though what can come up is this sense of imposter like, “Am I good enough at this to really just-” I actually think it’s more of an internalized message of, “Who are you to charge? You should be doing this for free. This is part of your job intrinsically.”

I think that’s one of the places that we have to kind of come to terms with and say, “Oh, wait, no. Actually, this is a huge contribution. And either I can’t or I won’t, or I’m not willing to do it without giving it context and a container and an exchange of some sort.”

So photography as it is, kind of happened in an organic way. I had my daughter, and then around 2012 I had four children by them. And my boys had just gotten old enough where I had started working outside the home.

And then I had this little girl and I was planning on- With my boys, I’d been single for about a decade with them. And with my little girl I’d really thought I’m just going to be home with her.

And it’s funny, there was always this tension of I had this idealized desire to be home with my children to give them a particular kind of experience. And yet this pull, whether it was a life and circumstance pull or an internal pull that always took me into working in one way or another.

Lindsay: I just have to interrupt because I know you can see my face and they can’t, the people listening. And I’m literally just holding in a laugh because, and I don’t want you to think that I’m laughing at you. It’s just a similarity and our stories is insane.

Danielle: I love that.

Lindsay: I’ve never heard anyone describe the way I felt when I thought, “You know what I’ll do? I am going to stay home with this baby because she is everything and she is amazing.” And then it was just like, “Nope, I was not made for this.” So that was my experience. So anyway, please continue. I just had to interrupt.

Danielle: Yeah, please interrupt or over talk, I love it. I think it’s beautiful. And I want you to. And also, so here’s the thing, I tortured myself for years over it. When my boys were little and I had to do it, I moralized it, all kinds of things. It just made it so painful most of the time. I was either failing at one or failing at the other in some way in my mind.

And with my little girl was similar. Like, oh my gosh. Because what happened was, there was a financial circumstance that arrived. And I couldn’t sit passive in it. I just couldn’t sit passive in it and that meant choosing to work.

And what that looked like for me was, it was so interesting, because it was really in the height of do what you love and the money will follow. Like 2010 maybe, right around there. And I remember being like, “One, which thing that I love?” That just felt too vast of a question for my nature. And then also, it just wasn’t in a model that fit for me.

And for me, it was what can I do, and who can I do it for. And I sat down and made a list of what I could do and who I could serve. I made a couple phone calls and I had clients.

And mostly what that looked like was supporting the healers because I knew them. I’d been doing that since I was a kid. And I knew how to be in that space and to give them both a soft place to land and also a thought partner to really figure out how to move their business forward, sustain their own wellbeing, et cetera, et cetera.

And that’s how that happened. And that kind of organically grew. And one thing led to another and somehow within a year or so I was co-producing a magazine with a couple of brilliant creative women who had biggish online platforms. Which was not the world I was in at all.

It was beautiful. It was such a beautiful project. And I really took on the implementing more than the creating. We weren’t well resourced enough to sustain it. So we put out about five issues and then it was done. And my body was done. My body was like, “Anything that isn’t easy goes. And if that means everything else crumbles in life, so be it.”

And so the only thing left standing was photography. Which up until that point, again, I had only done as like, “Sure I’ll do your head shots” for the people I was already coaching and supporting. Or “Sure, I’ll take the shots for the magazine.” But I found myself not just, “sure I’ll do it,” but more like, “I can do that.”

It was one of those quiet loves that I had never really tended to because it didn’t feel meaningful enough until I decided to give it meaning.

So what happened was, in the beginning, everyone wanted to get naked. This is actually still kind of true, I have to say. It ended up being like some flavor of boudoir photo shoot.

Lindsay: Interesting.

Danielle: I didn’t particularly love that language so it was much more of just this- The same thing though, people would have these incredible experiences of seeing themselves, seeing their body in a way that they hadn’t. You know, that sort of thing. But they also happen to be influential online creatives and entrepreneurs. So the minute that they said, “I did this photo shoot,” I had this beautiful ripple effect on my business of everyone saying, “I’ll have what she’s having.”

Lindsay: So good.

Danielle: Yeah, and it really naturally transitioned to me photographing them for business. And that suddenly, it was like everything kind of lined up and felt meaningful and purposeful and beautiful. Because now I’m centering women in the visual narrative.

Not to sell somebody else’s product. Not to over or under sexualize them, but for them and their contribution. Not even just in relationship to their children or their partners. Them the individual in their chosen contribution, their chosen thing that they want to be seen for. And that really feels like something to me.

Lindsay: That is an incredible story. And it’s very different than any other coach that I’ve had on here who has told me their story about how they got into coaching.

One question that popped into my mind just as you were speaking was, at what point did you call yourself a coach?

Danielle: Yeah, so I realized that really just took me to photography and didn’t really circle it all back around.

Lindsay: You wove it in there for sure. I mean, it does answer my question, which is how did you get into coaching. And it sounds to me like you just always were.

Danielle: Yes, and I was always doing trainings. So even during the years where coaching was never mentioned, I’ve always had this drip of one on one people that I’ve worked with. In 2018 and 2019 I was on the road about 100 days a year. It didn’t leave a lot of time for much else. And I didn’t market or do anything because, again, there really wasn’t space for that. And there was enough momentum.

But I continued to do different trainings and different things. And I always was like, you know, there were plenty of times where I would find myself thinking, “What is your point here?” And yet it all informs the thing that we’re doing that oftentimes isn’t nameable.

In terms of when I started calling myself a coach out loud, I think it was probably 2019. It was somewhere in there because I kept saying, “This year I’m only taking eight photography clients. And then I’m going to build up this other part.” Because I knew that practically speaking, number one, being on the road that much just didn’t make sense.

But also because what was starting to emerge for me was this sense of people are hiring me to be their photographer, but that’s not really the thing they’re hiring me for. And I want to name it for myself. I want to also be able to stand in an offer out loud. Yeah, it’s lovely that people keep trickling in. But I want to be able to name this piece. This is what I’m doing. This is what I can offer you and how I can support you.

And really, the pandemic is the thing that gave me more time and space to carve that out and put it in the forefront and really make that switch to like, “Okay, this is the primary. Yes, I will continue to do photography because I love it. But it’ll be this tiny little slice of the pie with a few people each year.”

I love working with people again and again. Because the more we know each other, the more that shapes and informs what we can do together as well. And that really did just give me the space to put coaching in the forefront.

Now, I struggled with the word coaching for a while for sure.

Lindsay: Yes, I was curious about that. I actually went to your website before we got on here to see if that is even what you call it yourself.

Danielle: Yeah, I think it’s on there.

Lindsay: Yeah, it is.

Danielle: Yeah, mentor, I think is something that’s been around for close to a decade, guide. But what I found was, really it was adding visibility to coach that gave me the freedom to say, “Okay, I’m going to run with this.”

I needed something to contextualize it for myself. I found that some of the other words like, you know, I can get really tripped up on semantics. So when I would really sit with things like coach, or mentor, or guide, mentor oftentimes felt like more of a match. But I didn’t feel like it transmitted enough of what I wanted to say.

And I think this is something we struggle with when we’re naming things. When we’re in this bridge period of new world and old world. And so adding visibility to coach even though, of course, visibility, people hear it and they might think something slightly different and what I’m going to offer them. But that’s okay, I’m good with that.

Lindsay: Of course, I think you get to decide what it means for you. This is actually something I talk about all the time because I think this is true for so much coaching. Because it’s kind of a very broad field. And there are so many different styles of coaching, types of coaches.

And, you know, I know lots of coaches who are maybe, let’s say like money coaches. That can mean so many different things and that person gets to decide and define what it is for them. So I love that we’re talking about this. I know it’s going to be so useful for so many people.

Danielle: Yeah, naming and claiming is a big part of visibility. It’s a big part of visibility. It can be both joyous, and liberating, and exciting, and kind of life generating juicy, and really uncomfortable and scary. And bring up all of the who am I, too. Or is this too hokey? All of that kind of stuff.

Lindsay: Recently have you been able to kind of stick to the plan you made of, mostly this is what I’m going to do and I’m going to limit this other side of my business to a small percentage. Have you stuck to that plan? How has it gone? Which parts have been hard? What do you want to say about that?

Danielle: I have stuck to the plan. I have stuck to the plan since, I mean I’ve stuck to the plan since the pandemic, for sure.

Lindsay: That was probably helpful.

Danielle: It was helpful. It was helpful.

Lindsay: If anything good came out of it for you that sounds like probably one of the things.

Danielle: One of the things. I’ve had a few good things come out of it. And yet there is the part of me that says, “And would I be saying the same thing either way?” It’s very possible because I was really ready and primed for that.

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: But yeah, I mean, in terms of what’s been challenging, it’s a lot of the sort of mundane things of saying, “Oh, I’m going to keep showing up with this.” And yes, I’m going to listen for feedback and whatnot, but I really know that this is good. So I’m going to keep saying it again, and again, and again, and again. Knowing that it might be too much. Someone might hear it too many times. It might irritate somebody. That type of thing.

But it was so funny during this last launch, which is closing a couple of days, I had a moment where someone who I know follows my work and is in my world. And we had an email exchange and something came up about me being in the launch. And I had been in it for at least a couple of weeks by then. And she said, “Oh my gosh, I had no idea.” And I thought, “Oh gosh, that is so genius. What a gift.”

Because we think when we’re talking about our work, or we’re sharing our thing, or we’re launching our program, that we’re just so loud.

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: We feel so loud and so obnoxious. People are busy.

Lindsay: I say this all the time. No one is paying attention to you, no one.

Danielle: No one is paying attention to us and we think that that’s all that they’re hearing. And the truth is, there might be some other people who are running across our thing four times and are annoyed.

Lindsay: Yeah, could be.

Danielle: It’s okay.

Lindsay: Yes, yes. You know, I say both sides, right. I say, “No one’s paying attention to you.” First of all, let’s just own that. No one’s paying attention. It’s fine, so the thing. Keep going. And on the other side, if they are paying attention and they do see your thing four times in a day, they probably don’t have the same thoughts you do.

It’s like if you saw a furniture ad with a couch that you love that you’ve been eyeing, and it keeps popping up- this happens to me -it keeps popping up in your feed because you click on it, and you search it, and all the things. You don’t get annoyed, right, you’re like, “There it is again.”

Danielle: Yeah. Or you have a different thought each time. You might be grappling. I think that’s another thing that we don’t oftentimes leave enough room for. Especially in sort of our meme quotable, tweetable culture. If it’s not a full body yes, it’s a no. Really? What about discernment? What about deep deliberation? What about grappling with something?

So if you see my thing four different times, maybe one time you are annoyed, or even think it’s a bunch of BS. And then the next time something catches you in a different way.

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: And maybe it’s on each of us to decide what we do when we come up against other people’s things.

Lindsay: So good. And I think that that is true. I think there’s so much gray area that we sometimes forget to allow for. It’s one thing I will say about your mastermind is that you are very good at just, you don’t even talk about it in this way. I just noticed that because it’s something I talk about so it really stands out to me. But you are so good at like, “Yes, there is that way. And there’s this way. And then there’s all the ways in between.” There’s not just the one right way.

Danielle: And then there’s all the ways we don’t even know exist yet.

Lindsay: Exactly, yes. I love it. And there’s something about your teaching style and your coaching style that really allows for all of that, that I think is beautiful. We’ve talked about it now a few times, but why don’t you tell them what is your mastermind? What do you teach in there? And anything else you want to say about it?

Danielle: Sure.

Lindsay: And so you call it a mastermind?

Danielle: So I call Visibility Medicine program, really I think of it more of like an immersion. We do some teaching and we do some co-working because I really want you to create while doing it. I really think we need to integrate what we’re learning in real time. And it’ll continue too later, we need time to metabolize. And we come together in coaching.

And then because I am so blessed to have so many amazing people in my world and I tend to be this bridge of different communities. And I think that I’ve always had this dream of being able to have different people in a room together that wouldn’t naturally find themselves there.

And so that’s part of what happens for us. And when I bring in guest teachers the content is important, and thoughtful, and intentional. But the how we do what we do in there is one of the things that I really focus on in terms of my creating the program.

So, a lot of my training and routes are in attachment theory. And this is one of those things like, what does that have to do with business? Well, I think it has a lot to do with business. Especially when we’re talking about visibility.

We’ve talked about how just by scrolling through Instagram we can have all different parts of our attachment strategies activated. And the more that we can learn to return to secure attachment, the more that we can be in that place and come from that place. Or just know how to get back there. It makes us better coaches. It makes us better facilitators.

And it’s less taxing on what it takes to have a business out in the world and have a presence out in the world in that way. It’s one thing to be an incredible practitioner. It’s another thing to learn how to be a presence in the world and have a marketing plan that you’re putting out so that you can fill your programs and do your thing and have the reach that you want to have. Those are different skill sets.

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: We’ve seen it both ways, there’s incredible marketers out there that aren’t necessarily the best coaches.

Lindsay: Yes, 100%.

Danielle: And there’s incredible practitioners out there that want nothing to do with or have very little or no skills in terms of marketing and presence. And so in Visibility Medicine I’m hoping that we can fortify the parts that need to be fortified and be able to do both.

And this sort of circles back to a lot of the work I did with healers early on. And even still when I work with them, because I think sometimes they’re an endangered species. To sustain the job of being a healer, whether that’s hands on, or a coach, or whatever, you’ve really got to build certain things into your model or you’re going to burn out. That’s why we lose people all the time. It’s fine to have the money goals, but can you sustain them?

Lindsay: Yes, I love that you’re talking about that. I think this is so much of why I kind of went down the path I did as far as my coaching. I kind of saw this missing space of, you know, there’s so many people talking about marketing and business and sales. And in a way that’s very much about money.

Not that that is a bad thing. I’ve said this before, I love money. I love making money. I love talking about money. But I just saw this gap where it was like, but you can’t put most of the focus over there. There has to be this balance of learning how to run a business. Learning how to market yourself and do all of those things in order to sell the coaching. But then also backing it up with some really amazing coaching.

Danielle: Well that’s it. That’s the study of the craft itself, right? But as you say that I do think, and as you know, I tend to shy away from a whole lot of promises of really clear, direct answers. I think that we have a lot of quandaries that we’re sitting in and we only have so much bandwidth.

And that varies from person to person depending on your neurobiology, your physiology, your circumstances, I think that we can underestimate how significant circumstances are. So how well you’re resourced, you may or may not have the bandwidth to both master marketing and master your craft.

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: And I do think that there’s a place of inviting in deep compassion and getting real about that, resourcing yourself where you can, but something’s got to give.

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: Something’s got to give. But there is an equation that can work for everyone, we just have to find what it is.

Lindsay: Absolutely.

Danielle: Or keep trying to jam ourselves into something else or keep trying to believe that we have to be amazing at all of it. That just feels like more abuse. It’s like taking this systemic abuse that’s laid on us and giving it to ourselves and each other.

Lindsay: I remember towards the beginning of my coaching business when I really thought that I needed to put so much more energy into my marketing and show up in this very certain way and be this certain type of person. And what a relief it was when I realized, you know what I love doing? Coaching. And if I can just lean into that and be really good at that, I can just be okay at the other.

Danielle: Yes.

Lindsay: It’s actually true and it’s working really well. And I think, of course, I get better with practice. It’s just not something I even think about all that much anymore, all of that energy I was trying to put into marketing before. Or not even marketing, because I think so many different things can fall into like, what is marketing, right?

Danielle: For sure.

Lindsay: But when I say that it was this very specific vision of what I thought marketing was supposed to look like. Not kind of all of the things that you can encompass when you’re talking about marketing.

Danielle: Yeah. It’s funny, all of those supposed to’s that we have, that we pick up, sometimes they’re brilliant. And it makes me think, I think it was Anne Milan, she teaches poetry and she teaches writing, talks about. And I hope that it was her, I’ll double check myself. But talks about how we go from imitation to emulation, to originality. And again, maybe I’m off here, but I’m paraphrasing, right.

But I found it, I remember the first time I heard it, and it was really, you know, when you can feel like a shackle pop off? You breathe a little bit more.

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: Like, “Oh, right. We are supposed to imitate.” I mean, think about those of us who have had kids or have been teachers, we know, especially when they’re little that’s what they do. They walk around copying us.

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: That’s how we learn. And then we eventually, inevitably find our own way of doing it. A dandelion is going to be a dandelion. But at first, it’s just trying to sprout, right?

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: So I think that that’s what the supposed to’s are sometimes for us. There’s this thing that we come up against, because it’s what’s going to call us to even try. But eventually we figure out our own way of doing it. And that’s when we get to breathe a little bit easier.

Lindsay: Yes, Oh my gosh, that just gave me chills that when you said it’s like the shackle popping off. I can really feel that moment in kind of my business where I did shift into just really owning like, “No, this piece, this is what I love to do. This is what I love to focus on. The rest is all extra and I’ll work on it when I need to. But for the most part I’m going to put my focus over here.” And it literally felt like so much freedom to just lean into me and lean into what I love. And now, this is part of what I teach.

Danielle: I love that. Somebody posted something recently, and she’s brilliant and I love it. And she was talking about marketing. And she was talking about authentic marketing. And she was talking about not pre-planning your content. And it was really compelling, and just one of those very casual compelling messages that someone puts out there that feels so authentic. And it was authentic.

She talked about posting things in the middle of the night when inspiration hits her and all of that. And I thought someone, or likely many someones are going to take this formula and going to try it on. And some of those someones, actually what’s going to be the most authentic, or maybe resonant is a better word, coherent way for them might be having some structure and some planning. And actually taking this on might create anxiety. Might create all kinds of things that are not actually for them.

So it’s interesting, we get so inspired and so turned on by other people, which is beautiful. I just think the more that we can remember it’s not so much what they’re saying, it’s that they’re saying it. Like it’s this core message that we can all do our own thing our own way.

And really what’s so rich in that too, is that means we can change all kinds of things collectively, that are not right.

Lindsay: Yes, I do love that. And I believe so strongly that it’s true. When I think of all the amazing coaches or other entrepreneurs that I’ve had the opportunity to work with and really see how different everyone’s business is and how it works differently for them. It’s very freeing, I think, when you are where I am.

Which is I believe I know how to run my business, how to create money, how to talk to my people, because I’ve been working on it for so long. But I do remember in the beginning seeing that and thinking, “Oh my gosh, which one’s right for me?” And it is interesting being kind of on the other side of that seeing it all and thinking, “Of course, there is no right answer. You could build a business and a million different ways, and it can work.”

Danielle: Yes. So I’m so curious, being at this stage of your business, and I do feel very much. I feel and I know and I experience that visibility, which, for me visibility is, I mean, quite literally, it’s the ability to see and be seen. But it’s also taking up space, making space, naming and claiming and showing up. So I’m curious for you. What’s your biggest visibility challenge at this stage of your business?

Lindsay: Oh, that’s a good question. Well, you and I have talked about this a little bit. And you have kind of helped me work through it. And I’m actually talking about it on my podcast right now, so it’s a perfect question, because I’m talking about this last launch and my biggest kind of takeaways from filling the launch and hitting my goal. But I think my biggest hurdle, maybe if that’s what we want to call it, is learning to be consistently me and letting it work.

So, not thinking when I’m in a launch, for example, and I know a lot of people do this, not thinking that when I’m in a launch I need to turn into someone different and change everything. And go from sending one email a week, two emails a week to 17. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, do it if you want to, great. But for me, I tried that a couple times. I tried it on, and it did not fit.

And so I think just believing that it will work, like staying in that belief of this is going to work and I can do it my way always, is the thing I’m kind of working through right now.

Danielle: So there’s a couple of things in there. One is, in terms of visibility work, where I get really excited and curious, that resilience that has to be in place in order for someone to feel comfortable trying things on is really a big deal. It can seem so small, and you just kind of slid it in there as you’re talking, like “I tried it on and it didn’t work.”

But that’s a sign of incredible resilience, in my opinion. And from what I see and what I’m hoping for all of us to be able to build more of, because then we’re free, right? Then we can say, “I’m just going to try this on.” It’s part of having capacity to fail and all of those things. This is not going to define me, this is not going to mean everything.

And this even scales to photos, because when we put it on that this one photo shoot is going to capture everything that’s a fuck ton of pressure. Am I allowed to swear on here? Is that okay?

Lindsay:  Yes.

Danielle: Okay. But when we remember this is one moment in time, this is one launch. And don’t get me wrong, when we’re talking about launches and if we’re in a position where that launch is what is our income which is feeding our family, that’s a different load that we’re carrying.

Which probably means we need even more resources and reinforcement. And we need even better care of our nervous system. Because that survival piece is really big and real. On top of the memory survival stuff that says, “Well, what if I’m laughed at?” You know, all those other pieces.

The other thing, and I think I shared this the first time we talked about it, this type of visibility issue which I think most of us have some version of or have had some version of always makes me think of that scene in Tommy Boy.

Which if you haven’t seen it, please watch it. And there’s a moment when Chris Farley goes in for his first sales call in front of a client. And basically, he ends up lighting the entire room on fire. And it is amazing.

And I personally find it very therapeutic because it’s so ridiculous. It’s like taking that worst case scenario and making it just nothing but comedy. Which is what we need to sometimes get back to center and say, “Yeah, I get really goofy and weird when I’m selling something for some reason. Oh well, that’s something that I do too.” And move on and do it anyway.

Lindsay: When you told me that analogy, you and I were chatting about a lunch I just had. So not the one I just had right now, but the one I had before that. And we were talking right after that. And I hadn’t quite hit my goal. And I don’t remember, I think maybe I was towards the end of the launch, maybe it wasn’t over yet. Or I had decided to extend it or something, I don’t really remember.

But you told me that analogy and I think I was crying, I was laughing so hard. First of all, because that used to be one of my favorite movies. I haven’t seen it in so long. I feel like I need to go watch it. And because of where was in that moment when we were talking, it perfectly described how I felt in that moment of the energy just becoming so tightly wound into this like, “Ah!” Like just a crazed feeling almost.

Danielle: Yeah.

Lindsay: And that is so opposite of my regular energy that until you said that, I had noticed that I was kind of becoming someone different, but I hadn’t noticed that it was that wound. Like that tightly wound in that moment of, “I must sell all.” Like the tight, tight grip. And that scene does describe it perfectly. So I’m going to have to find it.

Danielle: It’s amazing how dysregulated we can get by it. But, of course, everything in terms of both survival stuff around money and being able to provide and create and et cetera, et cetera, but also being seen and liked and understood. And wanted and belonging. And I mean, those are huge things. So of course, we’re going to get dysregulated and turn into kind of less desirable versions of ourselves.

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: From the outside, people might find you completely endearing when you’re like that.

Lindsay: Yeah, I mean, people were still buying what I was selling. Which is always so funny to me, because I’m like, “Really?”

Danielle: But for us it’s like we feel like we suddenly are the high school insecure girlfriend.

Lindsay: Yes, oh my god.

Danielle: “Love me, please love me. Let me tell you this six different ways, I’ll give you another reason why you should love me.”

Lindsay: Yes, exactly. Oh my gosh, that was so useful. Even just naming that energy and naming that analogy for me just really blew my mind. Like, “Oh, I see.”

And so because of that, and not just that, because of a lot of things I already knew, a lot of things that I’ve learned about launching. But then adding in those pieces of some things that you and I talked about, my next launch was so different. And I just vowed like, I’m not going to that place. It’s so uncomfortable for me.

Not even I’m not going to that place because maybe it’ll work better. But just I don’t want to feel like that when I’m in a launch. It’s not a great way to run your business. I want to run a business that feels great. And that did not.

Danielle: And I hear that as, “I’m going to hold on to myself.”

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: I, the adult woman, am going to stay present and stay with myself. And if the other parts of me get really insecure or scared, I will tend to them but I will not give them the wheel.

Lindsay: Yeah, and reminding myself if it creeps in it’s okay, nothing has gone wrong. This is know what I know. This is what I’ve learned, taught myself, and just seeing it like, “Oh, we don’t need to go there. It’s okay. Everything’s going to be okay.”

Danielle: Yes, that’s the tending. Yeah, that’s you tending to those other parts. You’re not rejecting them, you’re not freaking out, or saying, “Look at me, I’m ruined, I’m bad, because they’re there.” Which will just actually spiral things. But you’re saying, “It’s okay.”

That’s how we’re able to stay in our adult self, really. And continue kind of sally forth and do what needs to be done bringing along all of our little parts with us.

Lindsay:  I love it. One thing I believe full-heartedly is that building a business is a practice in resilience. I’ve said that so many times. And I think that it’s one reason I can look back to so many things that I’ve experienced in my life and say, “Yeah, that was really hard. And thank goodness that it was there, because here I am.” And I had a lot of practice in resilience.

And I say that just for anyone listening that is like, “Well, I have these circumstances in my life that have been hard.” Use them now to your advantage. I think there’s so many things that we think make us broken or whatever a different word for that would be. But that can really show up in ways in our business that are like, “Listen, if I can get through all of that, that’s going to help me run this business.”

Danielle: 100%. And I would add for those who have traumas that they’re still working with and through, and at this point in some ways I feel like isn’t that everyone after the pandemic? And many still don’t even know it, but particularly those of us who have had it for even longer.

And absolutely, the medicine oftentimes comes from the poison that you’ve lived through. Your magic comes from the hardships. Your gold comes from the alchemy. And oftentimes, particularly if there’s trauma involved, you can’t think your way through that stuff.

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: And sometimes if you’re in spaces that are missing the part around tending to your physiology, tending to your nervous system, you could find yourself feeling more broken. You could find yourself feeling super othered. The, “What’s wrong with me? All these other people are managing to change their thoughts and change their life, and yet I can’t.” And in those cases, it’s really about tending to your nervous system, tending to your subconscious, and making sure that those places are being healed.

And also budgeting for it. Knowing that like, “Wow, I’m carrying trauma.” Depending on your circumstances you may always be carrying it and make room for it instead of getting caught in the loop of more brokenness.

Lindsay: Yes. Do you want to give some examples? Because I think this is not something I talk about a lot specifically on the podcast. So I think it might be really useful. When you say tending to your nervous system, what does that mean to you? And what are some examples of how you do that? Or how you know that other people do that?

Danielle: Sure. I’ll use myself a little bit as an example. And then I can pull also from some of the teaching. In the teaching realm I tend to offer a variety of tools. So some of it is like psycho education of understanding certain parts of attachment strategies, for example.

Because I do think that when we have a cognitive narrative, when we have something that our brain goes, “Oh, now that makes sense.” We can step out of feeling broken. We can step away from shame, really. We can step away from more self-harm.

So there is a piece of that, that I think is really valuable in terms of understanding ourselves. And then there’s so many tools, and now more than ever, right? There’s polyvagal tools, there’s tremor tools, there’s all these different pieces. So I will tend to both offer them up and, of course, I use them myself.

So the first like tangible tool I was taught, I was 15. And I happened to have a therapist who was very ahead of his time, and he taught me tapping. Which at the time I don’t remember what they called it, but now it’s like EFT.

Lindsay: EFT.

Danielle: So that’s been with me since forever. And I remember the very first cycle that he ever taught me was just even though I’m whatever right now. So let’s just say hypothetically, even though I am failing at this launch, I love and accept myself. And it would be like three cycles in all these different spots. And you would repeat that same affirmation. But there’s the tapping along with the affirmation. It works. There’s something in that that does a settling to the energetics of the body.

There’s all kinds of things that you can do in terms of increasing vagal tone. Things like yawning, and gargling, and voo tones. So to me there’s a matter, again, being okay with trying things on and then also having tools. If you’re someone that has debilitating panic attacks, you need something that you can go to when that happens. If you have generalized anxiety, it might be different. If you have both, it really depends on what you’re dealing with.

And anxiety is one of those terms that’s become so much more popular, but it’s like this big blanket term. So there’s anxiety that comes with being a human.

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: But there’s a spectrum in terms of how we might experience that anxiety. Again, knowing ourselves and having support. I absolutely do not believe that this is work to be done alone. One of the most powerful ways to get regulated when we’re dysregulated, and to stay regulated more often is co-regulation, is being with each other and healthy with each other.

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: So this is what we bring to our coaching. This is the thing more than any modality, a therapeutic relationship has more impact than any modality. The quality of that relationship. So the more that we can offer healthy co-regulation and be with each other in our groups and in our one on ones. I feel like I went on a tangent. And there was a different question.

Lindsay: No, it’s good. I love it. I think I’ll interrupt you for a second and give you just another small prompt. Which is, I think that there are so many different needs for this. Maybe that’s not the right way to say it, but there are different levels almost.

So for me and my experience I got into coaching because I was having panic attacks all of the time. And it was a thing that I’d had therapy for and I tried all these other things.

And for me, coaching was the thing that really felt like it gave me my power back. That sounds a little cheesy to say it that way. But more power just over my mind and my body. Like it put me back in control is what it felt like. But that’s an extreme.

And I think there’s also the times when you’re just sitting at your desk and you’re feeling a little, I don’t know if triggered is the right word. But you’re feeling something about writing an email.

Danielle: Activated?

Lindsay: Activated, yes, I love that word. You use that and I really like that word because I just never relate to the word triggered. But yeah, you’re trying to write an email, you’re trying to post something, and you’re just feeling a little up in your chest, right? It’s all kind of related. But it’s like, there’s so many different levels of activation, if that’s what you call it.

And so, one thing I love about your mastermind is that you teach some of these things. And they have been very useful to me just in those moments of I’m writing an email, and I just feel a little like, “Err, I just want it to be done. And I don’t know what to say.” To just stand up and do- One of my favorite things is like bend your knees back and forth and then you just kind of let your whole body vibrate. It’s one of my favorites. And that just feels like on a very small, easy, 30 second level.

Danielle: Yeah.

Lindsay: And then I think there are times when it’s like, let me take a few days, and kind of quiet all of this. Do you have examples of what you do on a larger basis? Like in your mastermind you teach a lot of the kind of smaller things, you do breathing techniques, and so many things, I could give so many different examples of what you teach. But for you, what does that look like maybe on a larger scale?

Danielle: So meaning like for my personal practice, or in going deeper with a client?

Lindsay: Whichever.

Danielle: Okay, so for my personal practice it varies. I actually want to speak to one thing that keeps coming up, because I think that this is really important. And I also want to speak to the word trigger because, again, language matters. And we’re using a lot more of this language and I think understanding what we mean when we say it is useful. But I also think we’re in this bridge time, we’re in this liminal space. And so we’re using language creatively, which is beautiful. And we may have different meanings for things.

So when I say triggered, I mean, something along the lines of 80% of what’s showing up right now is historical. And then 20% is actually about right now. When our partner, or person, or client for that matter, or an email that we get really upsets us, like really upsets us where it may not match actually.

Like the level of upset may not quite match what’s actually happening. Or an anxiety attack or panic attack can be like that Because nothing’s really that wrong right now and yet our body is going into this global activation. This whole like shaking, depending on how it expresses for you. For me, it’s like I’ll get full body shakes. And they don’t stop until I settle way, way down.

That’s triggered, right? That’s not just about what’s happening right now. There’s more to it.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Danielle: For me, there’s lots of things. So I’ve had panic attacks since I was about five. And they’ve had different expressions throughout different parts of my life. And somehow the last, I’m 47, and I would say about the last seven to eight years have been the worst. And that’s frustrating. I know more than I’ve ever known. You know, I’m a grown woman. I’ve made it through. One of my affirmations sometimes is I’ve survived, just to remind my brain the surviving has happened.

Now, I can’t promise myself what may or may not come, none of us can. But those kind of reassuring statements, right? I am safe. That type of reassuring statement that we can offer ourselves. When we’re really smart, which most of us are, we’ll have a part of us that’s like, “You can’t promise me that.” The truth is, there’s also a part of us that just longs to hear it. It just longs to hear, “I’m safe.”

So in the same way I try to remind myself or I’ll have it posted around that just says, “I survived.” I survived. Just so I can kind of confront it in a very sort of casual way. We’ve talked about the mere exposure effect and our work around photography and seeing ourselves. I’ll do little things like that, like just leave little notes around that are very quiet, but specific. And it’s not so much staring at it and repeating it and repeating it, but it’s just more in my peripheral and kind of hoping it lands.

So I do a fair amount of things in that way. I surround myself with soothing items, or soothing things. And I also make a point to activate myself to make sure I’m not in a freeze, that I’m not just like- We can focus so much on the settling but we really actually need to be moving our limbs and reminding our brains and our body that we’re not trapped.

And since so much of our trauma has to do with when we’re children, so much of our trauma has to do with a time when we really didn’t have control. It’s so valuable to send signals to our brain that says, “I have choice. I can move. I can reach. I can do things.”

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle: And support. I put myself in high quality support relationships where I’m practicing co-regulation consciously. And then I’m also bringing it out of that and repeating it in a variety of ways. And when I do that, it’s therapeutic, both for myself and the other.

Lindsay: Yes, I love that. And I really appreciate you sharing that and just sharing all of the, you call them techniques. Just one thing that I guess I noticed that you said, one thing I took away from that is, it’s really a combination of all of kind of the small things. Whether it’s the post it notes, the relationships you have, the support, all the other techniques that you use, all kind of add up to be like this is my bigger process. But it’s really about the small things.

Danielle: Yeah, like I said, it’s been a thing to be like, “Wow, now this is when this is gonna get really hard? Okay.” But some of it is perimenopause. So I just want to name that because I am sure you have listeners out there that are somewhere in that late 30s to mid-50s range where this stuff is very real. And for some people they’re untouched, for others of us, it is a ride.

Lindsay: I will share that I just turned 40 this year, and within the last probably year I just notice just this anxious feeling in my body that I can tell is not coming from all of the spinning thoughts in my mind. It just starts in my body and it just feels like this kind of unsettled feeling. And it comes and goes. And I know, I can just feel that it is, I know it’s hormonal. I know it’s things happening in my body. And it is interesting just watching that and experiencing it and reminding myself nothing has actually gone wrong. We’re okay.

Danielle: Nothing has actually gone wrong, yeah.

Lindsay: Nothing has gone wrong, we feel unsettled, but there’s no reason.

Danielle: But you hear how beautifully comforting and soothing your internalized kind of grown self is?

Lindsay: It has taken me awhile to find that voice.

Danielle: Sure, but I just want to name it.

Lindsay: it did not used to sound like that. It did not.

Danielle: I just want to name it. Yeah, I get it. I get it. But it’s a big deal. I think that’s the thing. And midlife is magical. It can have this intensity that’s no joke.

Lindsay: Yes.

Danielle:  And you’re right, that physiological, that’s been this for me too. Whereas anxiety up until 38 is when it changed for me. And up until then, anxiety was very much impacted by my thoughts in many, many ways. There were other things going on too, but there’s a whole different thing with the body stuff. The visual I get sometimes it’s like a Muppet sitting in the control panel of my life, of my brain and just like flipping switches or something.

Lindsay: Yes, you have the best analogies. That’s so good. That is certainly what it feels like sometimes. It’s like, “What is happening? Why do I feel this way?”

Danielle:  That is not the heart rate that I should be having right now.

Lindsay: Yes, I love that. Okay. I feel like we could go on for at least five more hours. But I do want to not make this too much longer. But I do want to check in with you. There are things we planned to talk about that I don’t even think we did. And I feel great about it, I think we took a couple paths that are going to be so useful to people that were listening.

But I just want to check in. Is there anything else you want to add or talk about briefly? Anything else that’s come up for you since we’ve been talking?

Danielle: Everything that you’ve just said. I agree with everything you just said. We could go on, there are some things we didn’t touch on. And it was such a beautiful conversation.

Lindsay: Yeah, I’ll just have to have you back again.

Danielle: There will be more, yeah.

Lindsay: We’ll talk about more things visibility. I’m so grateful that you are here today. And for anyone listening that is interested in finding Danielle, I will have all of her information in the show notes, on my website as usual. And is there anything you want to share? I mean we’ll share your website and all of that. Is there anything about your business? How can people work with you? Anything around that that you want to share before we hop off?

Danielle: I would say you can share all of that, I’d love to know and learn who your people are. And at the crux of it, I think really the point is to know ourselves and know each other. And to offer spaces where that can happen.

Lindsay: I love that. Yes, there is room for all of us.

Danielle: Yeah, we need all of us.

Lindsay: We need all of the different spaces for all of the different humans.

Danielle: Yeah.

Lindsay: All right. Well, thank you so much. This has been so fun. And I will talk to you soon.

Danielle: Okay, I’ll see you soon.

—

Lindsay: Wasn’t she’s so great. Oh my, I love her. Seriously, I need to have her on like three more times. That conversation just didn’t feel like it was done, I didn’t want to let her go. There were so many things I wanted to talk about.

I love the perspective she has on coaching. I think that she talks about some things that I haven’t talked about a lot yet on this podcast. And I love really diving into the ideas of trauma, and triggers, and our past, and how all of that really affects not only the way we build our business, but even the way we coach. And we can also keep that in mind for all of our clients that we are coaching, right? They all have something similar. They all have pasts. They all have some kind of trauma, whether it’s small or large.

That is the thing that is just in our world that I think is so important to keep in mind and to remember as coaches. So I love you and glad you’re here. And I will see you next week.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Mastering Coaching Skills. If you want to learn more about my work, come visit me at lindsaydotzlafcoaching.com. That’s Lindsay with an A, D-O-T-Z-L-A-F.com. see you next week.