Hey, this is Lindsay Dotzlaf and you are listening to Mastering Coaching Skills, episode 76.

To really compete in the coaching industry, you have to be great at coaching. That’s why every week, I will be answering your questions, sharing my stories, and offering tips and advice so you can be the best at what you do. Let’s get to work.

Hey, Coach, welcome. I am so excited for you to learn so, so much from my guest today. She is incredible. Her name is Susan Donnelly, and she is a coach for ultra-runners. I’m going to let her tell you what that means and blow your mind with what is possible, not only in the world, but when you really lean into just focusing on your coaching, on being an amazing coach for your clients, and learning to love yourself and show up for yourself in the way that you want to. So let’s get to it.

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Lindsay: Hello, I am so happy to have you here today. I would love for you to introduce yourself to everybody.

Susan: I am delighted to be here too. I’m Susan Donnelly and I am a life coach for ultra-runners, which is runners who are going distances longer than the 26.2 mile marathon. So that’s 30 miles, 50 miles, 100 miles, 200 miles, no limit. So that’s my group and I help them develop the mindset they need to take on whatever challenge they want to take on.

Lindsay: I love that. And why, you just have to like brag on yourself for a second. Like how are you qualified to coach these people?

Susan: So I’ve been doing ultra-running since like 1997, which is a couple of decades. So I have a couple of decades experience. And in that couple of decades I’ve run a couple, several hundred ultras.

Lindsay: Hold on, hold on, you’ve ran several hundred ultras?

Susan: Yeah.

Lindsay: Not several, I just want to like pause for a second because not several 100 mile races.

Susan: Yeah.

Lindsay: Several hundred 100 mile races, or more than 30 mile races.

Susan: More than 30 mile races. And I’m particularly known for the 100 mile distance, which is my favorite. And I’ve run, as of this past weekend, I’ve finished 133 of those. Which there are very few people in the world actually, male or female, that have done that. So that’s what I’m known for. That’s my expertise.

Lindsay: That is pretty incredible in my opinion.

Susan: Thank you.

Lindsay: Does it feel incredible to you? Or is it like just like, yeah, that’s just like what I do on Saturdays.

Susan: It can be both. It’s just what I do and I’ve done it for so long now, decades now that it’s just what I do. But also every once in a while, so I will be out on the trail on a race and somebody will recognize me or recognize me from Instagram or something. I got recognized this past weekend from Instagram and I get called legend. And that is the moment at which it’s like whoa, wait a minute, this is weird. This is where the whole bigness, largeness of it kind of hits me.

Lindsay: Do you like that? Do you like it when they like say that? Like do you feel proud or how do you feel in that moment? I’m just so curious.

Susan: Well it feels weird.

Lindsay: You didn’t know this was going to be about you, right? You thought we were just going to talk about coaching.

Susan: Right, it feels like I should have my Sharpie marker out there on the trail.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Susan: It is a little bit like, oh wow, this must be what celebrities experience. I’ve gotten over the awkward stage with that and learned to gracefully own it. Because when I started out, I didn’t have any role models at all. Like in running, really I didn’t have any role models. So I’m very conscious that I’m an example of what’s possible for everybody behind me.

And I hope that, ultimately I won’t be able to do this one day and I hope that other women come along and exceed what I’ve done in however, whatever way they want.

Lindsay: I bet you’re also inspiring to the people in front of you.

Susan: Yeah, it’s really interesting. And ultra-courses can be in all different shapes and sizes. We can go point to point, we can go in loops, multi loops, we can go out and back. So sometimes you see the people you’re in the race with, sometimes you only see the people you’re around. But yeah, just sharing my coaching message and letting them know what’s possible is a lot of fun.

Lindsay: I love it. Okay, so we’ll move on and I’ll stop asking you questions about yourself. We can talk about coaching now.

Susan: Yay!

Lindsay: So you are in my mastermind, which is how I know you, Coaching Masters. And we have have talked a lot about, you know, something that comes up for you sometimes is that your clients, and I know a lot of people listening will relate to this, your clients are, as runners, very action oriented, right? They just really want you to tell them what to do so they can do it and do a good job.

What have you had to kind of work on to be the coach who’s like, yeah, that’s great, but I’m not just going to give you actions, I’m going to coach your mind?

Susan: So probably one of the things, and I will tell them I’m doing this. So I don’t like sneak this in on them. Something we worked on in Coaching Masters, decisions, was really helpful. And the whole teaching versus coaching part was really helpful to me too.

What I do is I will help them walk through decisions on like, say they’re trying to decide how many miles to put in their training plan, or what to run, how much to run this week, what their long runs should look like building up to a race, or whether they should do race. All kinds of decisions.

And I help them identify all the options they have to deal with. It’s just overwhelming to them and I help them identify all of the options that they have to deal with, and then walk through the options to make the decision about which way they want to go.

And I provide a lot of the information, a lot of the have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? What about this? Think about this. And anything they might have missed in their decision making. And I can watch how they’re making their decisions too, whether they’re making them out of fear or whether they’re only seeing one option or two, and there’s like 10.

And so I really help them making their own decision. I don’t tell them what to do. And I tell them I’m not going to tell them what to do. And so when they get to the end and they’ve made their decision, I help them also see why that’s going to be the best decision for them.

So I help them, one of the things I really tell them I’m doing is helping them learn how to trust themselves. Because that’s what they have to do out in the race, they don’t have me out there in the race telling them what to do. They have to trust themselves.

Lindsay: Yeah, I think that that’s such a good, you know, when I think about really what coaching is, and coaching in any niche, I think that that is probably one of the most important things that we do as coaches, right?

You and I have talked about this a little bit, but I think that when you explain to me what you do, it always sounds so similar to business coaching, where it’s like clients come wanting you to really tell them, okay, here’s step one through 20, just do this and it’ll work. And that’s just not really how it works.

And I think the same is true, right? The trust, like learning to trust yourself as an entrepreneur and running a business and all of that, like it really mirrors a lot of what your athletes are coming to you for.

Susan: Yeah, and they’re dealing with a lot of beliefs that there is a right answer also. So they’re putting pressure, not only is the decision overwhelming and the options they have to think through, but they’re also thinking that there’s a right answer. That they have to find the right answer, that this is like a test.

All these options could work as long as you commit to them and make them work. So there’s that part of it too. And it’s very much like business coaching, I’m sure.

Lindsay: And they’re probably thinking but Susan, you’ve run hundreds of these, just tell me what to choose. Do they say that?

Susan: Yeah.

Lindsay: I’m sure they think it if they don’t say it to you.

Susan: They’re thinking it. I get a lot of I don’t knows. And I was working with one of my favorite clients yesterday, and we’ve kind of joked about she needs to have a jar that she puts 25 cents and every time she says I don’t know.

Lindsay: I love that.

Susan: So yeah, she’s like, “I don’t know.” And then she looks at me, which means, you know, just tell me what to do.

Lindsay: Tell me, yeah. When you think about your clients being out on the course running on the day, right, on race day, or even when they’re training by themselves, thinking about that trust, like why is that so important? What does it affect like in the race?

Susan: So ultras, especially I talk mostly about 100s just because it’s a nice distance, it’s what most ultra-runners aim for.

Lindsay: So it’s like 0.1% of the population. 100 is such a nice distance.

Susan: It’s such a nice distance, yes. Yeah, we frequently laugh with each other in coaching sessions about you realize no one else in the world is saying this.

When they’re out in a 100 mile race, it’s like there are so many variables that they either, some of them they control, and some of them they don’t. Like weather, they don’t control the weather. They can control how they respond to the weather given the gear that they have. But then they have to have the right gear and all of that.

So there are so many parts to it, it’s like a puzzle. And there’s so much problem solving that goes on in between the start and mile, it’s usually like 102, 103 really. And so there’s so much decision making and problem solving on the way.

They have to navigate, they have to follow the navigation on the trail and not get lost. They have to get themselves out of aid stations. What if a problem comes up like blisters? All kinds of things, shoes, things go wrong with shoes. So many crazy things have happened to me and still happen that they have to be able to trust themselves in that moment to make a good decision, the right decision for them in that moment and to go with it and trust that that’s okay.

And like, especially like navigation, if you’re not around anybody else, you’re out there in the woods, remote woods all by yourself for hours. And you know the course markings you’re supposed to be following. But then you haven’t seen one, you kind of get aware of where you are and you think when was the last time I saw course marking? Am I lost? Am I on course?

And then in that moment, that’s a really sweaty palms moment. It’s like do I go forward and look for another marking? Do I go back? Do I wait on somebody else to magically show up?

Lindsay: Right.

Susan: So there’s a lot of trust that they have to have in themselves out there to make smart decisions, make good decisions, and to follow through with them.

Lindsay: So good. I think I’ve shared with you I used to dabble in running, nothing like what you do. And I ran several half marathons and I trained for a marathon, although I never ran it. And I think the difference is like you’re just in the middle of a bunch of people the whole time, like for 13 miles, right? There’s just people all around.

And I can only imagine because I have a couple of friends who have run hundreds, so I’ve heard some stories. But first there aren’t that many people in the race to begin with, like way less people than races that I’ve been in. And for 100 miles with that different paces of all the people, I’m sure, can you like run a whole race, I mean, I know there’s the aid stations and you see people there, but between is it normal to just like not be around people most of the time?

Susan: It’s not unheard of. It depends a lot on how the course is set up. If it’s a point to point course, that’s much easier to end up running by yourself. Because people, just like in any other race, 5k, 10k, marathon they all start together generally in a big clump and everybody kind of separates out over the course of the run.

So I have run 100s where I see very few people the whole entire time. My first 100 was like that, I was pretty much by myself most of the time. I remember seeing another runner, who is now a friend of mine, and it was like, “Oh, a human.”

Lindsay: And some of the races are in like the mountains and there are animals, like this is just things I never thought of until my friend was talking about doing one. And just like you were saying, all the preparation and decisions that are just so different than running a 5k or a marathon even.

Susan: Yeah, yeah. And I’ve run some 200 mile races in the mountains. And I remember seeing, one night in one of the two hundreds I remember seeing, if anybody’s cleaned out a litter box they know what cat poop looks like, this was like very large cat poop. This was like mountain lion sized cat poop and I thought, “Oh, I didn’t know they were out here.”

Lindsay: And aren’t you like not supposed to run if you see a mountain lion? Like that’s the worst thing you could do?

Susan: Yeah, pretty much. But this was like at night.

Lindsay: Yeah, well I was just thinking how kind of ironic that is that you’re running, right? And now you’re like, oh, there’s a mountain lion somewhere. That’s got to get your adrenaline pumping.

Susan: It did, yeah. To add a layer to the answer, in a lot of 100 mile races, so there aren’t as many people running the 100 mile distance as say if they offer shorter distances. So a race will typically offer like a 50 mile version or a 50k version along with it, my race this past weekend did.

And there will be a ton of people in the 50k. But if we all start together, one of the mindset things is the 50kers finish after 31 miles and they’re done. And then there are fewer people on the trail. And then the 50 milers finish. And then there’s us, there’s the 100 milers.

So there’s fewer and fewer people out there the whole entire time as you’re getting tired, as it’s getting dark, as you’re getting, you know, things are going wrong. So there’s just a ton of mindset. And, you know, if you’re running loops, you’ll see people. But a lot of the stuff that I do is not necessarily a nice, you know, neat little loop. It’s like you said, out in the mountains and woods.

Lindsay: Right, What do you tell your clients when they ask you, you know, like, well, why is the mindset piece important? Can’t I just train? If I just run enough miles, it’ll be fine, right? What do you say to that?

Susan: Yeah, there is so much the y could potentially dive into in just the physically training their body, that it’s really easy to stay there. And, you know, literally to finish 100 mile race, you have to get your body across the finish line in the most basic form of the running. So it seems like the mind is extra. Like I’ve got to get my body to the finish line, and once I get good at that, I’ll add the mindset part.

But you can’t. It does not matter, I’ve watched so many runners for so many years and it really doesn’t matter how good or how talented they are, or how fast they are. If their mind is not in the game, they’re not likely to finish. So it’s so easy to drop out and give up and just, you know, I’m at an aid station that’s nice and comfy, I’m going to drop out.

In that decision they’re throwing away all the miles they’ve run in the race so far, but they’re throwing away all they’ve training done too. And it’s all because of what’s in their head. And I know that because I’ve been there and done that.

Lindsay: Yeah, I just want everybody listening, if they’re thinking like, “Oh, I don’t coach runners or I don’t coach athletes.” Everything you’re saying applies to everyone, right? It’s like why is mindset important in anything we do? In wanting a great marriage or in, you know, being a good parent, or building a business or, you know, literally anything.

And I’m just listening to you thinking of all the analogies I could come up with of like, oh, yeah, this is like when this happens, or when this happens. And I just think it’s such a good reminder that even in a sport where it is, you know, predominantly the action in our bodies are what we think of when we think of it, mindset is still one of the most important pieces.

Susan: Yeah, absolutely, 100%.

Lindsay: Now, do you coach mostly, I feel like I should know the answer to this, but I don’t. Do you coach mostly women? Or do you coach men as well?

Susan: I coach men as well. It’s mostly who comes to me are women. And it’s so interesting, I’m really learning, I don’t have that many male clients. It’s interesting to see the different mindset challenges between the two.

Lindsay: That’s what I was going to ask.

Susan: Because men will dive in, like I was running with some runners this past weekend. And I always, you know, if we’re running together, if we end up running together I’ll I’ll ask them and we’ll start talking and things. And I talked to two guys out there who were running their first 100 miler, one had never run a race before. This was his first race.

And so I was so fascinated with that decision and how he just decided to dive in. And the other guy was like, “Well, I’ve never run an ultra. This is my first Ultra.” And they’re going for 100 miles.

Lindsay: Because of course.

Susan: Because of course, why not? And they were both very, well, if it doesn’t work out, you know, I’ll just do better the next one. And women on the other hand are really much more, they deal with a lot of comparison, a lot of perfectionism, I have to know the right way, I have to over prepare, over train for the test.

And that’s a big thing, like the anxiety of knowing whether they’re training enough or not, there’s this urge to add more miles to their training. Which seems like a good plan, sure, add more. You know, if you’re studying for an exam in college the more you study, it seems like the better you’ll do on the exam. And so it’s that type of thinking.

I see a lot of women end up in over training themselves, burning themselves out mentally and emotionally and then over training physically and maybe injuring themselves. Just because they’re trying to over plan and overcompensate for all their weaknesses. And they’re very focused on their weaknesses, where the guys are just going to, like just tell me how.

Lindsay: That’s so interesting. They’re like, I’m just going to show up and maybe I’ll finish, maybe I won’t, we’ll see. I’ll just do it again next time.

Susan: Yeah.

Lindsay: Yeah, I know, when I used to run a lot of my friends also ran at the same time. And a lot of the struggles that we had all as women were at that point we were at the ages where we were just having kids. And this was even for a half marathon or a marathon training. There was a lot of this takes so much time away from my family.

Susan: Oh yeah.

Lindsay: Do you coach on that a lot?

Susan: Yeah, I do see that come up, the mom guilt. And I’ve watched my friends deal with it over the years too. I remember very distinctly one good friend who just broke down crying in a late night aid station because she couldn’t be with her kids. And I’m like, I get it, but you dropping out at this aid station right now in the middle of the night, in the middle of the Virginia woods is not going to get you there any faster.

Lindsay: Yes, so good.

Susan: So there is some of that. But a lot of the women I’ve coached, there’s like an age gap. There’s a lot of young women, and I don’t get those as as much because I think it’s easier just to throw yourself out there in your young years and just like, I can do this, I’ll just be there.

Lindsay: Yeah, that’s how old I was when I ran. If I decided now to really get back into running, I would probably need a coach. There would be a lot more going on in my mind, for sure.

Susan: Yeah, so there’s the 20s. And then there’s like this gap, then women really get into the sport in their 40s and 50s when their kids are gone. And it does add some really interesting things to the mix because they’re older and wiser now, they’re more mature. They’re much more interested in getting into ultra-running, not just to finish one race or a 100, but to do it sustainably for as long as they can.

Now that they’re doing it, they want to do it as long as they can and not burn themselves out and be able to keep the joy. I get that a lot. So their kids have grown and left the nest, a lot of them. Now that they have the “time” to train for it and to run races without having that mom guilt, they’re ready and they want to do it right.

Lindsay: I can see that. And it makes sense to me, I feel like I’m at that in between stage a little bit because for me right now in my life logistically, I would have to really figure out like when would I even fit that kind of stuff in just between kid’s schedules, right? Like soccer, and horse lessons, and just all the things. Of course, it can be done. But it does make sense to me, I don’t know, that younger women would do it and then kind of after your kids are old enough that they’re a little more self-sustainable.

Susan: Yeah.

Lindsay: Okay, let’s move into one thing that I love about you. I love many things about you, but one thing I really love that I have told you, but I probably haven’t told you like this is that you showed up in my mastermind and I could just tell from the first day you were like, I’m getting everything I came for. That is happening.

I don’t know if that was your thought, but that’s the way you showed up that I noticed. Like in the best way, in the most just I’m going to volunteer for coaching every time that it’s offered and I’m going to apply it. It was so clear that you were applying because then you’d come back and say like, “Okay, well, I did this, and I tried this. And we coached on this, and I used this thing that you teach.”

And it was just so clear that you were all in. And I’m curious if that was like a conscious decision or if that’s just how you show up places, or kind of what your thoughts were coming in. Or going through, it doesn’t have to be in the beginning.

Susan: So I’m just going to take a stab at this. I haven’t really reflected on this, but I think part of it comes from all the mindset work I’ve done on races, because my mantra when I show up to the starting line, I know that like everybody standing there has some doubt and everybody standing there is nervous to some extent. And I am too, I mean, I’m mostly like can I get to the starting line on time?

Lindsay: Right.

Susan: But my doubt is really not about finishing, because I’m going to do my best. And so my mantra to myself is I’m here to finish. It’s not like well, I’m going to try, I’ll see. My mantra to myself is I’m here to finish. And it makes me, I mean, I’m not convincing myself, it’s like no, I am here to finish. And I think that mindset applied to the mastermind to some extent.

But you let me squeak in at the last minute too. I had been on vacation and been kind of thinking about it after a race. And I had been kind of thinking about the mastermind and thinking oh, I don’t know, you know, am I ready for a big commitment thing? I’m really interested in this one. And I caught myself thinking, “Oh, maybe next year.” Like a race, like I would with a race, maybe next year.

And I thought, wait a minute, I’m like 59. That’s just so ridiculous, what the heck am I going to wait and why would I wait another year on this? This is exactly what I want right now. This is like my missing piece at the moment. And there was all these other things maybe I was thinking of doing, but I can’t even really get the most out of those until I do what I’m going to do with Lindsey in the mastermind.

And so it was just so obvious, like this is my next step. And I thought that’s it, and so that’s why I applied, and got in, thank goodness. And I thought no, I’m making the most of this. I want to get the most out of this because I have things ahead I want to do and I really want to nail this and get the most out of it for me so that I can do the stuff I’m thinking about in the future.

Lindsay: Yes, I love that thought, I’m here to finish. That’s so good. I say I get what I came for, like that’s always my thing going into anything. Even if I get in and I’m like, oh, this isn’t quite what I expected it to be. I still am like, “Well, I’m here, and I’m going to get what I came for. I’m going to figure out what it is I’m going to get out of this.” And I’m here to finish is very similar and also very powerful. I love that thought.

Susan: Yeah. For a running analogy, because I could do running analogies all day long.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Susan: So the race this past weekend was really a crazy one. In so many ways it was just not what I expected and there were a lot of difficulties I didn’t anticipate. And it would have been easy for any other runner to really get frustrated with it and just to say, “This is stupid, I quit. It’s a bad race,” blah, blah, blah.

And I thought, “No, I’m here and I’m going to get what I came for out of it. I’m going to make the best out of it. And who knows how it’ll work out? It can always work out better than I expect.” And it often does.

Lindsay: Yeah, my thought in situations like that is maybe what I’m here to learn isn’t what I thought I was here for, you know, like isn’t what I thought I was here to learn. Maybe it’s something different and I’m willing to figure out what that is.

Susan: Yeah.

Lindsay: I’ve had that experience just in different, you know, in coach trainings and in just different things I’ve done where I’ll get in and think, oh. Not that it’s bad, just oh, this isn’t quite what I thought it was going to be. Not even necessarily sometimes in the actual training, just like, oh, this is harder for me than I thought it was going to be, or this is, you know, surprisingly challenging for whatever reason.

And yeah, I just always go to that space of like, okay, well, I’m still here to get what I came for, that didn’t change. So what am I going to do? What am I going to believe about this?

Susan: Yeah.

Lindsay: I really love that.

Susan: And the other thing from running, I think that helps me is that we invest so much in races, time, expenses, blah, blah, blah, and energy. And one of the ways I got to where I got is I have to find everything I can from that race. There are so many things I learn in every race. What are they? What are they? What are they? You know, very much like our evaluations, like what went right? What went wrong?

And I really spend time thinking about that on every one because there’s always, even if the race doesn’t go like I expect or like I want it to, there’s always so much learning. And unless I really look for it, I can miss it. So there are no wasted races, there are no wasted masterminds, there’s plenty there always.

Lindsay: Yeah, I think people sometimes are surprised when I tell them that I still evaluate my coaching, not necessarily every single coaching call. But, you know, when I say you don’t just like get to a point where you’re like, oh, I’m just perfect at this forever, right? And it’s very similar to racing. I love that you brought that up because I find sometimes my clients do get very frustrated with themselves of like I shouldn’t have to still be doing this, right? Like they shouldn’t have to be evaluating.

What are your thoughts about that? And you can even like, think about it in terms of racing if you want. I think it’s probably the same reasons, like why is it important to keep evaluating?

Susan: Yeah, and that’s something I feel really passionate about because you cannot do 133 hundred milers, and you can’t be in this sport for decades if you think there’s an endpoint. The thing that keeps me coming back is that there’s always more to master. I mean like in a lot of ways I’ve mastered the 100 mile distance, but there’s always more there to master.

And that’s the fun part to me. If it was an endpoint, it would be like a Netflix series, like okay, that’s the last episode and I really want more. It’s just so fun that there’s always more to get better at, to learn, to do differently next time. And it’s the same thing with coaching. It’s very much like once I got over that I have to do it right or else, you know, the mindset of getting better at it every time is way more fun. And that just keeps it fresh.

Lindsay: Okay, so many coaches need to hear this. So many. Because, I mean, I know you’ve seen it a little bit in our mastermind, but in other masterminds it’s been even more prevalent where clients will just be so hard on themselves and say like I don’t want to evaluate because it feels so bad. It just feels awful. Everything about it is awful, I just judge myself. And it’s like the exact opposite of what you’re saying right now.

Susan: Yeah.

Lindsay: I love it.

Susan: Me too, that’s the fun part.

Lindsay: So if you think about like the evaluating of your coaching, which I know you did a lot of over the last six months.

Susan: Yes.

Lindsay: Was it fun from the beginning? Or did you have to kind of work to get there?

Susan: I think the first one was like diving into a cold pool. It was like, okay, let’s see how this goes. And literally the first one, I mean, it’s there for me. It’s not something you’re making me do, or that somebody’s going to judge me on. It’s there for me. And it’s a tool for me. And I think I even said in one post, I said, I love this. I’m like evaluating all my sessions there at the beginning.

Because sitting down with those questions, as simple as they are, but not whipping through them. But like sitting with them for a couple minutes and really thinking about them, I kept surprising myself with what I came up with. I was like, oh, I didn’t see that. I didn’t see that either. Oh, huh, that’s interesting. And it’s really the same thing with races.

And it is, honestly that’s what keeps it so engaging and so fun, is just how good can I get at this? How much better can I do at this? This is fun, let’s see what I can do.

Lindsay: Yes. Well, I just really hope that everyone that is listening, that does have a hard time with, you know, not even in my mastermind, just anywhere, right? Like evaluating or comparing themselves to other coaches, I know that one thing I do in the mastermind I’m in with my colleagues making lots of money, when I see them post something like what you just described, where you’re like, “Oh, I love this,” right?

When I see them post, things like that, that I don’t have that thought about, that I have like an opposite thought like, “Oh, what? You love this? I hate this. What?” I always think, “Okay, this is good news. This is such a good opportunity for me to figure out how I can have that thought, right? How can I love this thing that I currently am like, “Hate it. No, thank you. Hate it.”

And so I love that you said that because I’m sure there were some people in our mastermind who saw you post that and thought, “What? How can she love this?” Thank you for sharing that because I think that that is, if people take one thing away from this podcast episode, which there’s been so much goodness already, but that one thing could change everything about their coaching.

Susan: Yeah, and I know from running that that’s what makes it sustainable, running these distances, that’s what makes that sustainable. You know, there’s always the race and it’s exciting, you see people. But the overall umbrella is just like this is so fun to just see how much better I can get at this. So it’s just easy to apply that to coaching.

Once I got over the need to do it perfectly and like are the clients can hate me if I don’t do it perfectly? Or whatever, you know, all those thoughts. And once I saw this as an option, that’s when it really changed for me and I thought that’s so fun. I can just keep getting better.

Lindsay: Yeah. Something you mentioned too reminded me of, it’s like the difference between doing it for yourself and for the learning you’re going to get, which is a great reason to do it. Versus doing it for me, right? Like, okay, I’m going to turn this in, which you don’t do by the way, I don’t make everybody turn in evaluations all the time.

Susan: Thank goodness.

Lindsay: Sometimes you guys post them on the page, so I see them. But it’s for you, right? Like, I don’t care, I’m not going to give you a grade. You can be a terrible coach if you want to. Carry on, like just go into the world being a terrible coach. But that just doesn’t sound very fun.

Susan: No, it’s not. No. And stressing about turning it in, that wouldn’t do any good.

Lindsay: Also, I give pretty kind feedback. So I’m not a very like this is terrible type of coach. I might be direct, but I’m very nice at the same time. I try to be anyway. Maybe not. Maybe that’s not your impression.

Susan: That’s true.

Lindsay: I think that’s it. Is there anything else you want to share that we didn’t cover?

Susan: It’s so hard, and I would have liked to have had this prepared.

Lindsay: That’s okay.

Susan: It’s so hard to say how much I got out of Coaching Masters and working with you.

Lindsay: I thought maybe you were going to say something bad. I was just thinking like, it’s fine, we can edit this part out. Pavel, you’ve got this, just cut it right here. You got so serious.

Susan: Well, like Theresa was saying the other day in our session, you know, it’s easy to look around at other coaches and to think that’s the right way to do it. Or this coach is making a lot of money and very successful, that’s the right way to be as a coach and that’s the right way to do it.

It was so helpful to have you as a coach to see a different way of doing it, like intimately, not like on a podcast episode. But like, you know, working with you. It was really so helpful to watch you coach and to know that was your style and to really get a sense that every coach is going to have their style. And you’ve helped us with that a lot. So that’s been really helpful.

And I was so pleasantly surprised that I thought, I have no idea what I’m going to learn here. I know I’m going to learn what I want to learn, but I don’t know what that looks like. And I was so surprised that it was like, oh, I’m already doing some of this. And this gives me a structure and a way to, it just so helped me align everything in my brain.

And some of the stuff that I thought I would never solve, like my process. That just made me laugh the other day when you said, “Okay, everybody, I just want you to define your process.”

Lindsay: Yeah, just write it down.

Susan: And I thought to me that’s such a big gnarly thing. And you just said, “Okay, just go define your process.” And I’m like, “Wait, what?”

Lindsay: And to be clear, I said a little more than that.

Susan: You did.

Lindsay: But basically I was like, yeah, first step, we’re just going to get it out of your brain because if you’re coaching, you have a process right now, in this moment.

Susan: Yeah. And that message right there was like, oh, I already have this. I thought I had to go out and like find it and think about it. And just you saying that was like, oh.

It was also reassuring and it just helped build my confidence that I was already doing a lot of this. And it really helped me learn how to do it even better. And so it was like the best, it was like a no brainer investment. Like why was I even thinking about this? This is the best investment ever.

Lindsay: That is so nice, thank you. And I think, yeah, I think a huge part of what Coaching Masters is, that sometimes maybe I have a hard time describing but of course I’m working on that. I’m getting better and better at it and it’s so useful to hear your words, right? Because I’m like, oh, yeah, that is what we do.

And I think so much of it is, whether it comes to your process, your coaching, your anything, how about let’s just stop judging it. And just figure out right now, where are we? What is it? And is this what I want it to be? Or is there a part of this I want to change or work on or, you know, whatever? That’s so much more effective than I don’t know, I just don’t have a process and I’m waiting for the person who’s going to tell me what it is.

Susan: What it is, yeah, and I have to start from scratch.

Lindsay: Which is just not a thing. Yes, yes, yes. So it’s not out yet, but I think maybe two or three weeks before this podcast airs, I do a whole podcast about processes.

And so it’s funny that you brought that up, because, not teaching everything I teach in the mastermind, but talking about mostly like the biggest mistakes that I see coaches make when it comes to it. And that’s like the number one, is just judging yourself for not having one instead of just asking like, oh, wait, but just what is my process?

Susan: Yeah, it’s just such a simple question on the surface, but it was just like it rocked my world. It’s like I have this thing already that I thought I needed to go find from some mystical mountaintop somewhere.

Lindsay: Right, that’s why you’re running all those races, right? You’re just looking for it, it’s around there somewhere. Whenever we get to that part of the mastermind I always feel like there is about half of the mastermind who’s like, “Yes, I’ve been waiting for this, I have a 37 step process and I cannot wait to talk about it.” Maybe like a fourth to a half.

And then the other however many, just like deer in headlights, like blink, blink, what do you mean, what is my process? And it’s just so fun to just, like let’s just all meet in the middle. Let’s simplify this one over here and let’s just decide over here that you have a process and it’s already great.

Susan: Yeah, and it was surprising because some of the work that we had already been doing, I had already been thinking about it. And I don’t know if I consciously made the decision, but some of the early work that we did set me up to start thinking about it.

And just the awareness piece for me was like, wait, we don’t have to get in the session with a client and solve big things every time? Like just the awareness and pointing out that that’s a thing was huge for me. So it taught me a lot, and it bolstered my confidence in what I was already doing.

Lindsay: Well, thank you so much. Is there anything else? I’m going to have you tell everyone where they can find you. But before we do that, is there anything else that we didn’t get to that you feel like you need to talk about?

Susan: I think the other thing I would just like to mention at the end here is just the women in the group, being in a container, and I really so much appreciate the group I was in. You said you thought it would be a good fit and I thought, “Yes, this has been so awesome.”

Lindsay: I remember that, when we chatted for a second before you joined I think, right? And I was like I just think you’re going to fit right in with this group. I do remember that. And I meant it. Like I really thought like, no, she has to join this time because this is her group.

Susan: Yeah, and just the caliber of, I mean, I was a little intimidated. I thought I have no idea who I’m going to end up in a room with here and it’s just little old me coach. But just the caliber and the willingness of everybody to put their stuff out there and be coached. Because I learn so much from everybody else that gets coached.

Lindsay: Yes.

Susan: And even if I’m not coached, I actually learn more from people getting coached than I do when I’m asking the question. But it’s been such a good group to be with as we’re all working through the stuff that’s tough for us and the stuff that we’re stuck on. And I appreciate, after two years of pandemic, being in a group. And I appreciate that group in particular, that group of women.

Lindsay: Yeah, thank you. I love that. And I agree, it’s an amazing group. And I told you guys at one point that kind of each group takes on their own different personality, and your group definitely, it was just so interesting when you came, it was last minute and we were making the decision of like should you join? Should you not? And I just remember thinking like, “Yes, this is for you. 100% you are going to fit right in.”

And I did not know you, we had never talked before. I just knew from interacting with you for a few minutes that it was going to be a really good fit. So, I’m so glad you came. Thank you for doing this podcast with me. Tell everyone where they can find you.

Susan: My website is Susan I, middle initial I, Donnelly, D-O-N-N-E-L-L-Y .com. And my Instagram handle, I’m most active on social media on Instagram, and it’s Susan I, middle initial I as in India, Donnelly, D-O-N-N-E-L-L-Y on Instagram.

Lindsay: Love it. And we will link all of that in the show notes. So if someone’s in the shower, or driving, or wherever they’re listening they can you just go to the show notes, click on it to find her. And I love watching your Instagram because you’re running a race like every weekend and it just really blows my mind. And honestly, sometimes I’m like, “If she can do this, I could go for a walk today.”

Susan: There you go.

Lindsay: That’s what I could do. But just you’re so inspiring and I really love following you on Instagram.

Susan: Thank you, I appreciate it.

Lindsay: Everyone should come find you, so fun. All right, thank you so much and I will see you in a few days in the mastermind.

Susan: Yeah. All right, bye.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Mastering Coaching Skills. If you want to learn more about my work, come visit me at lindsaydotzlafcoaching.com. That’s Lindsay with an A, D-O-T-Z-L-A-F.com. see you next week.