Ep #70: Decision-Making Drama with Kimberly Mathis

Hi, this is Lindsay Dotzlaf and you are listening to Mastering Coaching Skills, episode 70.

To really compete in the coaching industry, you have to be great at coaching. That’s why every week, I will be answering your questions, sharing my stories, and offering tips and advice so you can be the best at what you do. Let’s get to work.

Oh, hey coach, it’s Lindsay and I want to let you in on a little secret before we get started in today’s episode. And really, it’s not such a little secret because it feels really big and exciting, and it’s not really a secret because I’ve hinted at it a couple times already on the podcast, and today I’m just going to give you the details.

I know some of you are going to be very excited based on the number of emails, and questions, and messages I have been getting just begging for the information and I just haven’t given it to you. I’m sorry. But now I’m ready, I have a plan, and I cannot wait to tell you.

So pull over, turn off the car, stop cooking dinner, get out of the shower, whatever you need to do. Grab a pen and write down, just scribble a little note, Lindsay’s new program, The Coach Lab launching March 9th. And then make a little asterisk beside that and then write March 9th to March 11th promotion for founding members.

What that means is I created a program for you and I can’t wait for you to be there. And because of that I also created a special bonus and a gift for you when you sign up in the first couple days the program is open. So, if you want more information, if you can’t wait to join, if you’re curious, whatever it is, come join the wait list. This is very important, that way you will not miss that promotional period.

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Hey coach, today I have the most fun conversation with my client and my friend, Kimberly Mathis. She has been here before, but I’m going to let her introduce herself, tell you what she does, and let’s dive in.

Lindsay: Hello.

Kimberly: Hi.

Lindsay: I am excited to have you here today. First, I want you to introduce yourself. You’ve been here before, but today you’re here by yourself and we’re going to have a fun conversation. So introduce yourself, tell them who you are.

Kimberly: Okay, I am Kimberly Mathis. I’m a general life coach, former therapist. And I pretty much coach anyone on anything. I would say that my superpower as a coach is helping people to change things that feel unchangeable.

Lindsay: Oh, I love that. I don’t think I’ve heard you say that before.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Lindsay: That’s so good. Can we just start there? Can you give us examples, if you’re willing, of what a lot of your clients come to you for? Like what are the things they want to change?

Kimberly: It really runs the gamut, but I think the common theme is that feeling of like there is no solution. A lot of times any idea of what the solution might be lies with someone outside of them. And so they can’t get that person to do it differently, they can’t get that person to think or feel differently or change.

And so my clients come to me because they just feel kind of stuck. And sometimes they even come in or they reach out to me saying that there’s really no solution and so they just want to learn how to feel okay in this situation that they don’t like at all.

So for like specific examples, there’s that kind of like theme underneath it all. And like with one client, she came to me because she felt like she had no time for herself whatsoever. Not even 10 minutes in the evening. Like her plate is just overflowing. She runs her own business, she has a family with small children. And so we have changed her thinking, right? It felt like a fact to her that there was no time for her. So now she has time both in the morning and the evening that she takes for herself.

I have another client who came to work with me because she is older, she had an adult son living with her that had a lot of issues he was working through. And she felt like her entire life was controlled by everything that he needed from her. And she had no choice about supporting him and taking care of them.

So we just gave her her choice back. And she started making more decisions about what she was willing to do and not willing to do and kind of like taking more ownership of her time and her schedule and what she’s willing to give. And she is living on her own now. They were living together, she’s living on her own and doing more things in her schedule and her day that she just enjoys that she wasn’t doing before.

So it can be like completely different scenarios, but that kind of feeling.

Lindsay: I love it so much. It reminds me so much of what I did when I was a general life coach. So much of what I helped my clients with was just exactly kind of the things that you’re saying. Not the exact same examples, but working through things where they thought they were hiring me to just be okay with the situation.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Lindsay: To just learn to accept this is just where I am right now, I just have small kids, or I just whatever, right? And I want to feel fine with it. And I was like, or you could change things. Let’s talk about that.

Kimberly: I know, yeah. So I basically just teach all of my clients like a process for change.

Lindsay: I love it.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Lindsay: So that really kind of leads into one of the things I want to talk about today, which is kind of decision making. Which I’ve talked about on the podcast before, it’s something that I talked about in the mastermind. And as I’m in the process of creating this program that’s going to launch in a few weeks, that is one of the, you know, some of the videos that are going into the program are all around decision making.

And you have been pretty vocal just with me about how amazing that has been for you, just really thinking about it. What are your thoughts about decision making as a coach tool?

Kimberly: Well, I think when we went over that in Coaching Masters, we were really talking about like decisions for our business and decisions for how we work with clients and boundaries that we might need in our businesses. And I don’t know what it was about that, but something just clicked for me and I felt like it was just like this philosophy of everything.

And I started seeing all the decisions everywhere that I could make, wasn’t making, was leaving just like unmade. And I see all of that for my clients. And I think, for me, using decision making, like it’s such an important piece of the process that I teach my clients because it gives you such ownership over actions, and feelings even, and the thoughts that you want to have.

So even in a situation, like for example, that client I have with the adult son and she’s been working on things with him. Even in that situation where she felt like I have no choice but to help him. That’s not actually true, because she could make the choice not to help him at all.

And of course, when I brought that up she’s like, “Oh, I would never do that. That’s my son.” I’m like, exactly, you’re making the choice to do it. You’re making a decision to do it because it aligns with your values, or it’s how you want to parent, it’s how you want to show up.

But she also didn’t realize, one, that she was making that decision. And when you don’t realize that it’s a decision that you’re making, it can kind of snowball. So she felt like she wasn’t making the choice. And so she wasn’t making any choices at all about requests that she would say yes to or how she would spend her time.

So, for me, bringing everything back to decisions is just a way it puts them back in control of the situation to some extent.

Lindsay: Yes, I just love that so much. One thing that I kind of talk about when I talk about coaching and I say there are really only a few really important tools that you really need to know to be a great coach. I think decision making is up there in probably the top three, right?

Kimberly: Yeah.

Lindsay: Just asking really good questions is an amazing tool. I think we underestimate how many decisions we make every day or don’t make.

Kimberly: Yes.

Lindsay: Or avoid making or don’t even realize we are making, right, kind of what you just said. And it’s one of my favorites too because there’s something about it, like giving that power back to your clients. To me that just always is like my favorite thing.

Kimberly: Yes, yeah. It’s funny because I just recently had a session with a client where we started talking through something and I was coaching her on it. And all of a sudden, she was like, she had this epiphany, like she clearly saw what she wanted to do and that she wasn’t doing it and why she wasn’t doing it.

And then her reaction was, “Oh, I wish I hadn’t brought this up. I don’t want to do anything about it right now. I see it, yes, but I’m just not ready for that.” And it was a great chance for me to remind her that even just realizing something is enough. And her decision can be I see all of it, I see what I would rather do, and I’m choosing not to for the moment for whatever reason.

Lindsay: Yeah, I remember we talked about that at some point in the mastermind. I can’t remember what the example was, but it was something, just like a small decision. And I don’t think it was you that brought it up, but I can’t remember for sure. But someone had a decision that they realized as we were kind of going through that it was like, “Oh my gosh, I see this thing.” And then they were like, “Now how do I decide? And how do I know?”

And it felt like this business decision that  once they realized, they had to decide immediately. And I said like, “No, you don’t have to decide today, but even just noticing that there is a decision and then, okay, when are we going to make it? When am I going to make this decision?” And don’t think about it till then.

Kimberly: Yeah, you can decide not to decide at the moment. And that’s still a choice.

Lindsay: Yes.

Kimberly: It’s still more awareness, like you realize what you’re doing and you know more about the why for doing something or not doing something.

Lindsay: And I think there’s an ability there, once you see it, that you can release it until it’s time to make the decision, right? Instead of just staying in a constant state of resistance and not wanting to accept reality and like arguing with all the things or like stressing over it or whatever.

Versus, oh, I see this decision hasn’t been made. I don’t feel ready to make it now. What do I need to be ready? When do I want to make it, right? And just like making those decisions also.

Kimberly: I know, I love it. It’s everywhere.

Lindsay: We’re just going to geek out about how many times can we say decisions on this podcast. As we’re talking about this, I am having this realization that’s so funny to me. Because I’m talking to you today, I am all day, not all day, but most of the day I’ve been working on this workshop that I’m creating. And it’s going to be in the program and it’s literally, let’s make 100 decisions.

Kimberly: What?

Lindsay: And I hadn’t realized that that’s what it was, but it’s kind of I’m thinking about it like how to create the business that you’re in love with. Like the structure of it, how to make all of those decisions.

Kimberly: This is going to be in your program that you’re launching?

Lindsay: Yes.

Kimberly: Okay. I’m so excited about this. I loved Coaching Masters. And I don’t know if it’s accurate to say I’m more excited about the program, but I’m really excited about the program.

Lindsay: I am too. And I think it has that like new program feel right now, right? So I’m pretty excited about it. But I think what’s so fun about it for me is that I’ve run a bunch of rounds of Coaching Masters and I love it so much. And one thing I’ve been doing along the way is kind of gathering information for like what would it be really useful for my clients to know coming in?

Like what are all the foundations they need so that when they come into Coaching Masters, we’re all starting at the same place, right? So it’s not as much everybody in different spots. And yeah, I’m pretty excited about it.

Kimberly: Yeah, no, I think I am excited about having access to all of that stuff, all the time. So that when something comes up, inevitably, you know that I’m like, “Ooh, like I might need to revisit X, Y, or Z,” I can go do it. That’s what I’m excited about.

Lindsay: That is exactly what I’m thinking about as I create each thing, right? It’s like for the brand-new coach, like what do they need to hear for this? But also, when you’re making changes in your business there are lots of times where you have to kind of re-examine, right?

It’s like, oh, all of these things that have been working all of a sudden aren’t going to work anymore. Now what? How do I restructure? What’s going to happen when I take away my client Voxer access? Or whatever it is that people stress over, right, that just isn’t sustainable when you grow and grow.

And one thing, I didn’t tell you I was going to say this, so I hope it’s okay. We can always edit it out if not. But spoiler alert, Kimberly might be in the program teaching some things.

Kimberly: Yes.

Lindsay: Which is truly one of my favorite parts about it. When I think about all of the amazing students that I’ve had, I feel like it’s such a treat for me to get to ask you. But also for my new clients who will be coming in to learn from you.

Kimberly: Well before you even mentioned anything about possibly teaching in the program, I believe it was before any of that, that I sent you a message. And I was like, “I’m giving you more of my money.” I was like, as soon as you announced that you were doing a program and I was like, “I’m signing up.”

Lindsay: Yes.

Kimberly: I just know it’s going to be good.

Lindsay: That’s one of the things that makes you a clear choice for me, is not only are you such an amazing client, but just your excitement for it is like equal to mine almost, I think.

Kimberly: I’m so excited. Can we talk about why you feel like this is needed? Because I have a lot of thoughts about that.

Lindsay: Well, okay, so there are lots of reasons, but I think one of the things, I’ve talked about this a little bit on the podcast before. But one of the things that I see sometimes missing in the coaching space, and I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, because it might, I just haven’t come across it. Is kind of the bridge between like, okay, I’ve been introduced to coaching, maybe I kind of know what it is. Maybe I even am certified somewhere.

I learned these very specific tools. And then all the kind of more business masterminds that teach you to make all the money, and grow your business, and sign all the clients. But there’s this in between space that people kind of get really stuck in the like but okay, but now what? Like, okay, you taught me the tools, but what do I do with them? How do I actually apply them every day in my business or in my coaching?

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Lindsay: What are your thoughts about it?

Kimberly: So my thoughts are that a lot of times when people go into coaching, not all the time, but a lot of times when people go into coaching, they look for some sort of a training program, right? Especially if they have like no background that’s anywhere near the coaching profession.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Kimberly: So sometimes people will look for a training program and they go through the training program, and then they’re like out there doing their own business. And, yes, there are probably programs that exist to teach people better coaching skills, or to improve your coaching skills.

But by and large, I think what people see after you get certified or go through a coaching training, is just everything focused on business. Like how to build your business, how to market, how to talk to clients effectively. And it’s not that that is not helpful, I’m also in those programs. And I happily give them my money and I get a lot out of it.

But I think the most common factor that gets in the way of people’s businesses is that they are in their own heads and they’re thinking about them, and their worry is about them, and they’re thinking about their money, and their schedule, and how many clients they have, and if they’re doing a good job. And it takes you out of thinking about what’s going on with your client.

And it turns out, and I know this from being in Coaching Masters, it turns out that when you spend more time focusing on what’s going on with your client and being more effective with your client, your business is better.

Lindsay: Yeah, I love that. I had a thought as you were talking that I think another reason that I think this is so needed is I see, because I work with coaches from kind of all over the industry, all different trainings, all different certifications. One thing that really stands out to me that I don’t know if I’ve even put words to it until just now, so thank you for helping me realize this.

I think so many coaches come out of those trainings, out of those certifications, this isn’t always true, but one model of how to do things, right?

Kimberly: Yes.

Lindsay: Here’s what we do, here’s how you conduct your sessions. There’s only one option, this is what everyone else, even if they don’t say there’s only one option, it’s like this is what everyone is modeling within that school, within that certification, whatever. But sometimes that just doesn’t work for everyone, right? So then it just creates a lot of like, okay, I know, this is what I want to do, but I’m having such a hard time with this format, with this thing, with this thing, whatever.

And I’m just here to say you know what? There are so many different options. And sometimes I think one part of what I do is I just give my clients permission to not do it the one way that they learned, right?

Kimberly: Yeah.

Lindsay: And I think that that’s such a powerful thing of whether it comes to something tiny like, I don’t know, a program implying that every coach needs this perfect, professional website, right? I didn’t have one for a long time. I made a lot of money without a website.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Lindsay: And it’s just such an easy rabbit hole to go down. There’s nothing wrong with having one, right? I mean, I could just give you so many just little examples, everyday examples in coaching businesses where it’s like, you know, you don’t actually have to do that. You don’t have to do it that way. You don’t have to do it this way. Let’s find your way.

Kimberly: Yeah. It really is like how are you making decisions? What decisions are you making about your business and coaching? And why are you making them?

Lindsay: Yes, that’s literally what the workshop is that I’m creating. Just examining every little piece of it, from your first interaction with a client or potential client, to the last minute that they work with you, like really thinking through what are all the pieces? And why did I decide to do them this way? And are they still working? And do they work for my ideal clients? Is that a match?

Because sometimes people make decisions and then they’re describing their business to me, and then they tell me who their clients are and I’m like, “No, this is why you don’t have any clients.”

Kimberly: Yeah. My brain is just spinning right now because I feel like there’s so much we could talk about. I’m thinking about, I know that you and I have had some back-and-forth conversations about coaching being unregulated, and what people say that they’re doing and is it coaching? Is it not coaching? There’s just so much I think that’s been put under the umbrella of coaching.

Then I’m also thinking about one of the best things, I think, about Coaching Masters was talking through situations that might come up with clients. Where we don’t know how to handle it. We don’t know what to say. Maybe a client is frustrated with us. Maybe we think we did or said the wrong thing.

And just like working through all of that in a very decision-oriented way. Instead of just spinning in it or being like, “Well, what should I do? What should I do? What would you do?” And asking other coaches. Because you’re going to get all sorts of answers. There’s just so much. It was so helpful.

Lindsay: I love it. Yeah, I think that once, and I know you’ve heard me say this, but it’s one of those things where it’s like once you make the decision, now we can move on to the productive whatever you want to call it, drama. Or make the decision and then, okay, now what comes up?

Make the decision I only do; I’m just going to throw out a silly example. But like, I only do consults over the phone. I don’t do video, I don’t do in person, we do them over the phone, here’s why. That was actually how I did them in my business for a long time.

Kimberly: That’s how I do them.

Lindsay: Because I like to pace in my house, I like to move my body. I would always have a little bit of nervous energy. It was like, whatever. And then I met this whole group of coaches that are like, “No, you only do consults on Zoom.”

Kimberly: Yeah.

Lindsay: I was like, “What? No, not me. That’s not my way.” And I just think there’s so much, like once you make that decision, of like no, this is just how I do them and here’s why. Then you can see what comes up for you, right?

Like what if my client wants to do it on Zoom? What if my client wants to meet in person? What am I going to say? Just whatever, anything else that could possibly come up, those are useful things to exam and to see your thoughts. Versus like, I just don’t know what to do or I’ll just make the decision in the moment and do whatever my client wants.

Kimberly: Yeah, I’ll do whatever they want me to do.

Lindsay: Yeah, which is just never the best way to run a business. Because your clients will want all the things, right? They will want all your time, more than you could possibly give.

Kimberly: Oh my God, if I could have had all of this when I was first starting out, God, it would have saved me so much wasted time and just spinning and feeling overwhelmed and, you know, going back and forth and second guessing myself. It would have been so helpful.

Lindsay: And of course, there’s still always the learning curve, right? And there’s the like well decide and then try. You have to try it, right? Maybe you decide, you try it a few times and you’re like, “This actually doesn’t work for me. I love seeing a person’s face while I’m doing a consult.” Okay, now you can make a new decision, right? But it’s very different than just spinning in the I don’t know.

Kimberly: Yeah. No, I think it just, again, it’s going to sound like a broken record, but the ownership, the sense of ownership that I got after going through Coaching Masters was so, so helpful. And it really has a better effect on my clients and the work that I’m doing with them because I’m doing things that I know work well for me as a coach.

And that means that I end up getting clients, right? If I only do phone sessions, but a client is like, “Well, I love Zoom.” Then maybe that’s not the client that’s going to have a lot of success when they work with me because they’ll just wish we were doing video the whole time.

So it also kind of acts as this filter for your business to make sure that you get clients that are a really good fit for you and the work that you’re doing. And when those things come up, inevitably, like some sort of issue with a client, you just feel more calm about how you’re going to handle it.

Lindsay: Yes.

Kimberly: Because you have this process of thinking through it and you have other decisions that you’ve already made in your business that can help inform this one.

Lindsay: Yes.

Kimberly: Yeah, it’s just so helpful.

Lindsay: It’s so fun to make, even though sometimes it can feel uncomfortable to make all the decisions ahead of time, it’s so useful. Because even what you just said, where it’s like even if it’s a decision you haven’t made, but now you have the tools because you’re just used to like oh, I see I just need to make a decision here.

But there are also times when a client might say something or ask for something or let’s say like ask for a refund, right? If you know exactly what your refund policy is, there’s a lot less drama. Now, it might be like this is hard to say or this is uncomfortable or whatever. You’re still probably going to have thoughts. But that’s so much different than in the moment thinking, “Oh my gosh, what do I do? What is my policy? I have no idea. I haven’t decided yet, I have not even thought about that.” It’s just so so different.

Kimberly: And you also just get better at recognizing your own cues within yourself about what feels okay? What do I want to do? And what do I not want to do?

Lindsay: Yes.

Kimberly: No matter what other coaches are doing.

Lindsay: That’s one of my favorite questions to ask sometimes when coaches come to me with this type of drama, right? My first question is always like, “Oh, what do you want to do?” And they’re always so surprised.

Kimberly: I know. Yeah, but they always have an answer.

Lindsay: I’m sure this happens with your clients too.

Kimberly: Yes. Rarely does someone say, “Well, I don’t know. I really have no idea.” There’s always like a, “Well, I really wish I could blah, blah, blah.” Then there’s all these reasons that they have as to why they can’t do that, or shouldn’t do that.

Lindsay: Yes, I say this to my OBM, if she hears this she’ll laugh. I say this to her sometimes where I’ll say, because I’ve recognized this pattern of being scared to do the thing, so then not making the decision and being scared to commit and whatever. So what I’ll say is, “Okay, so in a dream world, this is how it would go.” And I just let my brain go there, right?

And in the dream world where there’s no drama, nothing’s going to go wrong, we’re going to work faster than we usually do, nothing’s going to come up, there’s not going to be any hiccups in the process, this is how it’s going to go. Now, let’s think through all the things that are going to come up along the way.

And that works really well for us because I used to say, “I don’t know. I think we should probably launch it on this date, but I know realistically it might take an extra couple of weeks.” And just all of the drama instead of “Well in a dream world here’s how it will go. Now let’s bring the reality into it.”

Kimberly: And then you just solve for it. Yeah, but you just solve for it.

Lindsay: So good. I love it. Literally we could talk for five hours about decisions.

Kimberly: I know, we totally could.

Lindsay: I just think once you see how many unmade decisions there are, especially with your clients, and how much drama that causes, right? How much, sometimes pain, it causes them. Once you start pointing them out, it’s like you can’t stop seeing them.

Kimberly: Yeah, I know. It’s just like the client that I mentioned that was like, “I have no time.” As soon as I hear her talking, all I’m seeing is like, okay, so clearly she just has not decided that she wants time. Because if it’s a decision, if it becomes something that you decide, then it becomes something that you’re making happen.

Lindsay: Yes.

Kimberly: Or you’re working toward, so it kind of becomes inevitable because you’ve made a conscious decision about it.

Lindsay: Yes, you at least get to see what’s in the way, right? So if you decide, for example, recently I decided every Thursday I am finished working by four because I take my daughter to horseback riding lessons. And I love it because I love watching her.

And I was a lot of times running late, right? But it was like I didn’t decide all the way. Like I hadn’t really committed to it, it was like this is something I really want to do, but I hadn’t gone all in. So then sometimes it was stressful and I was running late. And then I was like, can you take her, to my husband. and you know, a whole thing.

And then I was like, wait, I just didn’t really decide. And then once I did, then I could see like, okay, here’s why I’m running late. Here’s what I need to change. I can’t schedule anything after, you know, X time. Then I put things in place to make it happen.

Kimberly: Yep.

Lindsay: And it’s just so different than just every Thursday, like, “Oh my gosh, this is awful. Here I am doing it again, letting her down.” Right? Like whatever the thoughts I was having.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Lindsay: So what do you do when a client comes to you, because I know you have made, we talked about this maybe a little bit before. But you’ve made some big decisions in your life that some people would say like, “Oh my gosh, I don’t know how you did that.” How you decided that, how you made it happen.

What do you do when your clients come with those type of decisions? The ones that feel like even as the coach you’re like, “Oh, that’s a big one. It’s going to like change the trajectory of their life possibly.”

Kimberly: Yeah. Okay, so I think there’s usually one of two scenarios happening. Either they feel like there’s this big decision that they kind of see in front of them and they have so many thoughts and feelings about it that they truly do not feel like they have an option that they’re leaning toward. Okay, it’s just all too much.

And then I think there’s some other clients that see that big decision in front of them and they kind of know what they’re leaning toward, even if they don’t want to tell anyone yet. So I think it kind of depends on which one we’re looking at.

But in general, I think the first thing to do is to look at the smaller decisions, because the big decision usually involves a lot of smaller decisions. So you can break those down. Like, if it’s, you know, an easy example is do I stay in this relationship or do I not? Like maybe I’m considering getting a divorce.

Well, there’s probably other things going on in that relationship that have contributed to that and things that you’re not pleased with. Maybe it’s the way that discussions are being held. Maybe it’s the way that people are talking to each other in the house. Maybe it’s something about the dynamic. Maybe it’s something about feeling like there’s no sense of self, or a lack of independence in some way.

Those are all things that regardless of what happens with this big decision, they are all things that clients are probably like, “Yes, I would change something about this if I could.” So we can work on some of those smaller decisions. And I think in the process of doing that, one of two things happen.

Either they’re like, “Oh, I can change some of these things. And that big decision, either it doesn’t have to be made right now, I can give it some more time. My decision is to just keep things the way that they are because these other things are changing.”

Or they start seeing changes and it almost adds more fuel to like, “Okay, yes. I want all the things to be different. I’m moving in the direction of this bigger decision. And I feel more capable and confident about it because of these other changes I’ve made.”

Lindsay: Yeah.

Kimberly: If that makes sense.

Lindsay: Yeah, it makes perfect sense. I was even thinking, I hadn’t really thought of this before, but sometimes there are decisions were exactly what you just said, where it’s like you kind of know the decision, you want to make. And then there are all the fears in the way, and all the maybe smaller decisions, all the things. But you can see on the other side, like you can see this might be hard and here’s the good that could come out of it.

So when you say for example, when you talked about a relationship, it’s like, okay, maybe I’m in this relationship that I don’t want to be in. But there’s lots of reasons I feel very scary to not be in it. But on the other side, I can see I can’t wait to discover who I really am or get that apartment and move out or whatever it is, right? Like you can see the fun and the goodness that’s going to come out of it.

But what about the decisions where when you look at it, it’s like there’s literally no good decision here? Like just both choices seem no good. Is there a different process for that?

Kimberly: I don’t know that it’s really a different process, but I think you have to find some sort of anchor to help you make decisions or have some sort of movement. And so for me, I always bring in values.

Lindsay: Mm-hmm, I was just thinking that when you said the anchor.

Kimberly: Yeah, like what are your values as a person? What are your values for the kind of life that you want to have? And when you’re really unsure, you can use those values as like a filter for decisions.

So in this situation, right, if my value is simplicity. If in this situation I was going to make some choices that would practice that value or give me more simplicity, since that’s something I value, what would that look like?

Lindsay: Yeah, that’s so good.

Kimberly: Yeah, because if you can’t see the results, something needs to be different. How in the world are you supposed to make any sort of plan or make any sort of decision if you don’t know what it’s going to look like after the fact?

Lindsay: I love this. And to just bring it back around for all of the coaches, of course, this is applicable for coaching any clients or decisions that they have in their life.

But even for coaching businesses, values work is something I do in the mastermind because I think it’s so important as a coach and as a business owner when it does feel like there are hard decisions to be made, to really be able to examine your values as a human, but also as a coach, as a person running a company if that’s who you are. And use that as the guide of like, “Okay, this feels very uncomfortable and it’s very aligned with my values. So here we go.”

Kimberly: Yep. Yep, mm-hmm.

Lindsay: I love that. I had never really linked to those two. I mean, I’m sure I had, but I think just the way you just described it I was like, oh yeah, that really is what I use my values for, is like making every decision in my business. And even in my coaching and the way I coach.

Kimberly: Yeah, they’re such a good compass. I refer to them that way a lot with clients. It’s like if you can identify your values, it is a compass to use. And it’s so funny, a bunch of people, you know, if you ask them, do you know what your values are? They’d say, yeah.

But we often confuse things that we value with traits and like values as being something you can embody. So someone might say, “Oh, I value my family.” Right? But the question is really, okay, if you value your family, how do you show up as a part of that family?

Lindsay: Yes.

Kimberly: Yeah. And so same for your business or as a coach. If I value simplicity, then how am I making things simple for my clients? How am I making the process of working with me more simple? How am I making my coaching more simple?

Yeah, that’s a whole other thing we could go on a tangent about, it’s like, adding more stuff to your coaching doesn’t necessarily make it more effective.

Lindsay: Okay, listen, I don’t think it’s out yet. I think it’ll be out the week before this podcast comes out, I just did a whole episode on assets and why you should have them and when to know if one is needed or not. And usually, it’s like it’s not.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Lindsay: Yeah, so it’s so funny you just said that because I just recorded a whole podcast on it.

Kimberly Yeah, good.

Lindsay: One thing I noticed about really rooting myself in my values in my business is then I can really notice when something has gone astray, right? It’s also not even just like how do I make this decision? But just noticing like, oh, wait a minute. This is interesting, because simplicity is actually a value of mine.

And when sometimes something is feeling very uncomfortable, or feeling very a little hustle-y or a little whatever, and I’m like, “Wait, let me examine this. Why are there so many steps here? What is happening? Something has gone wrong.”

And it’s usually my thoughts, right? Like having some thoughts that aren’t making sense for whatever reason. Or that I’m just confused of what I think my clients are going to want and it’s like more, and more, and more, and more, and more. I’m like, hold on, that’s not actually true. Let’s bring it back.

And so I think they’re also such a good way to just notice when things aren’t going quite like you, I don’t even know what the word is because sometimes you’re not aware of it until the moment you are, right?

Kimberly: Yeah. Well it’s like if I feel like I have no time whatsoever and my plate is just so full and I have all these little things I need to work on. That does not feel simple. So if I notice, that like whoa, whoa, whoa, this does not feel simple, then I think that’s what you mean. Like it’s kind of a cue that maybe you’ve gotten off track.

Lindsay: Yes.

Kimberly: Maybe you’re giving things priority that don’t need to be a priority.

Lindsay: Yes. And maybe you decide they do, but it at least gives you the awareness of this is outside of the norm, what has happened here?

I, every Monday, look at my schedule for the week. And if it looks very full, like more full than usual, I will say, I’ll just ask myself like, “Okay, does anything need to come off?” Because I know myself well enough to know that when it’s just packed back-to-back and all the things and not many breaks, I just don’t function at the highest.

And then I don’t complete most of them. And I end up with 100 things that are half done, instead of just a few things that are done really well. And it’s taken me a while to learn that. And some weeks it is like, “Yep, this is just a busy week, and there’s not a lot that can be done.” And that’s okay, we can do that for one week.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Lindsay: But just knowing and just to be on to myself, why am I doing that?

Kimberly: Yeah. I think coaching for me, in general, like across the board, it is about being less reactive and being more intentional. That’s what all the decision making is for. That’s what thinking through like, why am I doing X, Y, or Z? Why having values and kind of using those, like I said, to anchor yourself.

It’s just they’re all different tools to keep you from just having things happen in your brain, or feeling things and just kind of like unintentionally reacting to them and finding yourself in situations that are maybe more complicated than they have to be and causing you overwhelm unnecessarily.

Lindsay: I just love how much you’re in my brain because you haven’t had access to or seen my program yet. But one of the kind of sections, so there’s going to be like a vault or a place where people can log in and go watch videos. And just like the place where you learn the things, right?

And one of the sections within that space is a kind of problem-solving thing. Like what do I do when…? Right? What do I do when my client does this thing? What do I do when my client comes to the call and is like, “Oh, I’m great. I’ve got nothing.” Like that kind of thing.

And one of them is how to notice, I forget exactly what I called it now, but like how to notice when your client, everything that’s happening is like reactive versus decisions ahead of time and being intentional. And how you can just completely change your client’s life if that’s the only thing you ever teach them.

Kimberly: Yes.

Lindsay: Because so many people, I think, just don’t even know that they’re doing it, right? That they’re just like living their whole life, it’s like why people describe it as feeling like they’re just like on a hamster wheel. Because they’re just living their whole life reacting constantly.

Kimberly: But they also think that’s normal.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Kimberly: They don’t even know they’re on the wheel.

Lindsay: I know, what a gift we can give as coaches.

Kimberly: I know.

Lindsay: To be able to say, “You know, there’s an option here.”

Kimberly: I know. God, I love coaching.

Lindsay: Like you’re going to always feel like you’re on the wheel sometimes, but the less you do, the more fun you’re going to have in your life for sure.

Kimberly: Yeah, basically I think everyone who’s a coach should join your program.

Lindsay: Well listen, this wasn’t intentional, but I am just really excited that you just came on to promote my program today. It’s so great. I mean I did know.

Kimberly: When you put stuff on Instagram about it, I sent that to so many people. Like coaches and people who, I know some therapist from my time in that community.

Lindsay: From my time.

Kimberly: Yeah, my time.

Lindsay: That’s so good.

Kimberly: Yeah. And I was just like, “Here’s what you need to do. Like you need to go use this, it is so helpful.” I will also say, I think for me, one of the reasons I left therapy and went into coaching full time is because I just tend to like more of the solution focused, kind of like okay, so what’s the plan? What are we going to do about this?

I like that better. I like spending more of my time there. And I think that there is a gap. There’s a lot of overlap between therapy and coaching, but I think there’s a gap in training for therapists. Like we are trained to kind of help our clients gain a ton of insight about what’s happening and things that have happened in the past.

But we’re not really trained to do what coaches do. And that’s like asking good questions to help clients figure out, okay, and now what? Like now that you see all of this, and you know all of it, you see why this is all happening, or why you’re doing certain things or thinking certain things, now, what do you want to do? And how do you do it? And I just love that coaching kind of fills that need for people.

So like I said, it’s why I sent it to some therapists. And I’m like, “Hey, this would be super, super helpful for you.”

Lindsay: Yeah, I love that you just said that. And that’s going to be so helpful for so many coaches, because I get that question so often. Like, what’s the difference between coaching and therapy? I feel like we could probably record a whole podcast on that.

Kimberly: Here’s the simplest answer that I have come up with.

Lindsay: Yeah, say it.

Kimberly: And I think I talked about it another time that I was –

Lindsay: Yeah, you may have but that’s okay.

Kimberly: It may have been the Live, Instagram Live.

Lindsay: Oh yeah, maybe.

Kimberly: Okay, so here’s the difference for me. It’s like therapy and coaching are both trying to answer questions. The question that clients come into therapy with is usually like, why? Why am I having these symptoms? Why am I feeling this way? Why am I thinking this stuff? Why do I find myself here?

And then the questions that coaching tends to answer, it’s not that coaching and therapy always answer different questions. Like I said, there’s an overlap.

Lindsay: Right, there’s definitely an overlap, yeah.

Kimberly: But the questions that coaching tends to answer are more of like a what and how. Like I said, like, okay, so what do you want to be different? And how are we going to do that?

So as a coach, I might have some part of a session where we really are just gaining insight. Like where we might talk a little bit about something that happened in the past, something that you went through, or the thoughts that you’re having, the feelings that you’re having. But we’re just not going to spend session after session after session there.

I think that’s the biggest difference. In therapy there’s a ton of processing and insight. Not quite as much, I feel like, of the like, okay, what do we do now, you know?

Lindsay: Yeah.

Kimberly: And coaching does that.

Lindsay: That’s so good. I love that answer, it’s so simple. And, again, this is so funny, I’m like, wait, like literally do you have access to the future and you know what is happening? Because I just decided, I just wrote out some notes yesterday that I’m going to record a podcast, because I get this question sometimes, like why am I a coach? And how did I get into it? And all of that.

And I’ve touched on it briefly. But I haven’t really talked about why I’m a coach, which is exactly what you just said. Because I had a lot of therapy. I did all the things and took all the medicine and like all the things. And I was in a place where I went from having lots of anxiety attacks and so much anxiety, constant anxiety. And therapy and medication and all the things really helped me get to like, “Okay, I’m okay. I can function, I have a great life.” Like all that.

But I was still taking the medicine and I was still having to use the things I learned in therapy, the breathing techniques and just all the things. But then coaching took me from there to I sometimes have anxiety, period.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Lindsay: And I’m totally fine feeling it, right? Which is just so different than the anxiety attacks and the just constant anxiety I was having. It’s just like night and day. And coaching, for me, was like, “Okay, now what?” Right? Like now what do I do now? Now how do I move forward? Like, I’m fine, but I want to move from here to thriving, and I feel like that’s what coaching helped me do.

Kimberly: Well, I was a licensed therapist in private practice. My dad’s a psychologist, okay? Like I had been in and out of working with therapists since I was like, 15. If something came up, go to therapy. It’s just what we did.

Lindsay: Which is amazing by the way. I’m so grateful when I hear that parents are doing that. But you’re going to say but.

Kimberly: Yeah, I think I’m probably going to make some people upset. And I know this is my experience and not across the board.

Lindsay: Let’s just point out real quick, all experiences are so different, right? So this is allowed to be your experience, for sure.

Kimberly: I never felt like I was helped as much in therapy as I was when I started working with coaches. It just made the biggest difference for me. Yeah, and so when I was a therapist, I had my eye on this coaching training, it’s really the only one I knew of, for like four years. Finally did it and I had just got to a point where I think I was really kind of a coaching therapist. I was doing more coaching as a therapist, because that’s the only structure model I knew of for that kind of work.

But when I realized I could be a coach, and I could go into coaching and I could just do coaching, I just could not stay in that therapy model and under that licensure and do that.

Lindsay: Yeah. When I think about what you just said, I think the same is true for me as far as like therapy versus coaching. But I also think, there’s like a but, I think therapy prepared me for coaching. I don’t know that I would have gotten as much out of it and been as receptive to it had I not had years of therapy and talking about all of the stuff.

Kimberly: Right.

Lindsay: But now I’m like, “Yeah, let’s not talk about that anymore, I want to move forward.”

Kimberly: Yeah, I could see that for myself too. I don’t think that one is necessarily better than the other. There’s just lots of options for lots of people. That’s just all it comes down to.

Lindsay: There are and I love it. I love that we get to be one of those options.

Kimberly: I know. I love my job. It’s just the best.

Lindsay: I love my job, too. I think it’s so much of why I teach what I teach, because I want every coach to love what they do. I don’t want anyone to be a coach and be miserable. There’s no reason because coaching is amazing. And if you’re miserable, just, I mean, don’t come be miserable by me. But like come to me and I will help you.

Kimberly: Yeah, yeah, it’s fixable. I’m pretty sure it’s fixable. Aren’t you putting something in your program about like what coaching is? And like consulting versus coaching?

Lindsay: Oh yeah.

Kimberly: We could talk a whole lot about that too.

Lindsay: Yeah, I think that’s so important to know, right? I don’t think that there’s a problem with a lot of coaches teach in their coaching, and that’s great. And a lot of coaches have tools that they share with their clients, a lot of coaches come into coaching because they have one skill that they’re very good at and they’re adding coaching to it, right? Like, oh, I teach people this thing.

I’m trying to think of an example, like a bookkeeper, right? I know how to run someone’s books, I could do that all day, every day. And I realized what was missing is really thinking about, okay, what are their thoughts about what’s happening? About the money, about where it’s going.

And it’s just so important to know the difference. Like to know when you’re teaching know, when you’re coaching, know, when you’re consulting. Know when you’re doing whatever it is that you’re doing. Because there’s nothing wrong with any of it. But there are a lot of people calling themselves coaches who aren’t actually doing any coaching.

Kimberly: Yeah, there’s also a big difference in teaching someone a strategy or teaching someone about a tool and letting them use it in whatever way works best for them, and telling someone this is the way you have to do things.

Lindsay: Yes.

Kimberly: And I think there is some of that that happens sometimes. And what I love personally about coaching is I don’t have to know all the solutions for everyone. That’s not my job. I don’t have to know what people should do in every single situation. My job is only to ask them such good questions that they figure out what they want to do and how they’re going to do that.

Lindsay: Yes.

Kimberly: So it takes so much pressure off. And that was another thing with Coaching Masters, I got so good at noticing when I was feeling anxious about a situation with a client, or like what they’re asking me, or like how am I going to fix this for them? Oh my gosh, that’s such a flag that I’m just in my head and I’m not coaching. All I need to do is ask them more questions, like come back to them. Come back to what’s happening in your brain, in my client’s brain?

Lindsay: Yeah.

Kimberly: It’s so helpful.

Lindsay: It takes so much less of your energy also. And it just helps the client so much.

Kimberly: Yes.

Lindsay: And there are appropriate times to say like, “Okay, well, what do you want to do?” Like let’s explore this, we’ve created so much awareness right here, how do you want to move forward? But anytime you’re in your head thinking, “Oh no, I need to know. I should know what’s best for them.” That’s not really what coaching is.

Kimberly: No.

Lindsay: And I do know, there are some coaches who use very specific things, right? Like, for example, if you hired a coach who was a coach, and also as part of their business model teaches you to do Facebook ads, that’s going to be a thing that they’re going to teach you to do, right? So you’re probably not going to hire them and then be like, “Well, I want to do it my way. I don’t really want to do ads.” Because that’s what they do. And that’s not what we’re talking about here, that’s different.

Kimberly: Yeah. That’s like a whole other podcast episode for you to do, by the way, I think.

Lindsay: Yeah. What’s funny is in creating this program, I am like, “Oh my gosh, I need to do an episode on this, and this, and I’m sure.” Which is funny because I felt like I was in a little bit of, not a rut, but like a place where I was like, “Okay, I need to really sit down and think about some ideas. Like, some fresh ideas.”

Kimberly: You’ve talked about so many things, yeah.

Lindsay: Yeah, like oh, I’ll do this and then I was like, “Oh, wait, I think I already did a podcast on that.” And I’d go back and look and like, oh yeah. And so yeah, it’s been fun creating the program and just, not that I’m going to do a podcast episode on all of the things in the program, but it’s given me some kind of bigger level ideas of like, oh yeah, just this concept in general, we need to talk about it. It needs to be discussed in the industry.

Kimberly: Now, I know I’m signing up for the program. Even before we discussed me potentially teaching, I was like, “I’m going to sign up, I’m sending you my money.” And I’ve been a coach, gosh, I guess just coaching full time like two years. But I was previously a therapist in private practice for six years or so, something like that.

So I’m not a newbie and I was like, “Yes. I want all this information; I want access to it.” And I’ve had some other coaches asked me like, is this what I should sign up for if I am brand new to coaching?

Lindsay: The answer is yes.

Kimberly: Yes. But would you say it’s like, I think it’s really for any coach.

Lindsay: Yeah, I think it can be for anyone. And I think, this is something of course that I had to work through so much when I first started creating it. But the beautiful piece of this is as I have been creating it, I’ve really noticed like, oh, this really is, this could be for any coach. It could be for like everything I teach.

I think I said this earlier, but it’s like all the things that are in there, now, of course, some of the things you’re going to probably watch the module or whatever and like, “Oh yeah, I know how to do that. I’m really good at this. Okay, next.” Right?

But some of the things, especially the workshops that I’m creating, are going to be so useful for brand new coaches to just make some decisions. And also for any coaches that are making changes, like going from one on one to group, or group to program whatever. And just like, oh, I can come back and go through this workshop again where Lindsay’s going to walk me through each question, each decision. And you can just do it with a different focus, right?

Kimberly: Yeah.

Lindsay: I just get so excited thinking about that.

Kimberly: I think that there are coaches out there who are “successful” in that they have maybe a full client schedule, and they are making money. You know, that’s what a lot of new coaches are worried about, like I got to make this work, you know, pay the bills. And I think that there are coaches who are doing that.

And even though they are “successful” they feel overwhelmed. They feel exhausted at the end of their day of working with clients. They have clients that they see them on their schedule, and they’re like, “Oh God, I always feel like this is a difficult session, or I don’t know how to help this client or whatever. Or you may feel like your time is not being managed at all, you know, because your plate is just so full.

And I would say if any of those things are happening, you should join the program because even if you have that successful coaching business going, you can probably make some decisions about how you’re using your time, and how you structure your days, and when you take sessions and when you don’t, and how you do all of it. That’s going to like smooth things out a little bit for you.

Lindsay: I’m just going to go back and listen to this whole episode so that I can just take notes on all of the marketing tips that Kimberly is giving me. Because I think you’re right, right? It’s like you’re going to see this on Instagram one day and be like, “Oh, I said that.” But I think you’re right, it’s like if you’re a coach who’s making a lot of money and your business feels terrible, 100% you need to be here.

Kimberly: Yes.

Lindsay: Because there are some things that aren’t sustainable that maybe you do in the beginning that you’re like, “I can’t keep this up.”

Kimberly: Because you think everyone else is doing it, so I have to do it this way.

Lindsay: And maybe in the beginning some of the things were very useful for you to do. But as you have more, and more, and more hours of coaching and you become a better coach, you don’t need to be doing like adding all the in-between session things, or adding like all the notes you send your clients, and all the things, all the extras that you might do in the beginning. They’re just not necessary.

And I’m not just saying this from a space of like just who cares about the clients, just get rid of all those things. Your coaching is so much more powerful a lot of is without them.

Kimberly: Yeah. No, I 100% agree. I had my therapy practice and it was like typical nine to five. Like this is what you do, this is what people work. And so when I was coaching, it was nine to five, I would schedule my clients that way.

And I got an ADHD diagnosis last year, I started medication for that, which has been phenomenal. And I started paying more attention, because I hired an ADHD coach for myself. I started paying more attention about my schedule and when my brain is on and when it’s not. And when my medication wears off there is kind of this little bit of a dip that you can have sometimes when it leaves your system at the end of the day.

And so I stopped doing nine to five, thanks to Coaching Masters and making decision.

Lindsay: You’re like, “Wait, Lindsay doesn’t start work until like 10 or 11? What’s happening?”

Kimberly: Yeah, well I was just like why am I not just scheduling sessions when I want to? And like building in a lunch, you know, if anyone wanted a session, whatever time it would work, I would just make it work.

Lindsay: Oh yeah.

Kimberly: And it was not helpful for me long term. And it means that those clients I have toward the end of the day, I’m getting depleted, and I’m hungry, and I’m just like mentally drained. So I’m not even doing my best work with them, even though I’m able to “work them in.”

Lindsay: Yes, so good.

Kimberly: So you can really have your business whatever way works best for you. And that’s going to benefit your client.

Lindsay: It’s true. And if you’re a one-on-one coach listening and you have lots of clients and you’re kind of in that space where you’re like, well, it does feel like a lot. Nothing has gone wrong. I feel like that’s very normal. And that is the time when it’s like you just want to start asking yourself those questions, right?

Like do I need to adjust somehow? How do I handle this?

Kimberly: This is not just how having a coaching business is. Like it does not have to be that way.

Lindsay: Yeah, totally. All right. I think we should probably wrap it up. We could just keep going for hours and hours.

Kimberly: I know, we probably should. I know.

Lindsay: But it is Thursday and I do have horseback riding lessons.

Kimberly: Oh, that is true, yeah. People, of course, I’m like your marketing person. I know that they can like send you messages on Instagram or wherever to ask about Coaching Masters or the program or whatever. But they can also send me some if they have questions.

Lindsay: I love that, that’s so good. Well, and we’re going to tell them where to find you anyway because everybody should be following you. What you do is amazing, I love following you on Instagram.

Kimberly: Thank you. So perfect plug also for yourself. Tell them where can they find you? Whatever you want to tell them.

Kimberly: Okay, so website is kimberlymathis.com. And on Instagram you can find me at the.liberation.coach.

Lindsay: And we will link all of this.

Kimberly: Yeah, I say that I do liberation coaching because that’s what I call it just because I free people up. I get unstuck.

Lindsay: Yeah. I think that’s the thing about decisions, right? It creates freedom in so many different ways. Freedom just from yourself sometimes.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Lindsay: Thank you so much, this was amazing.

Kimberly: Yeah, thanks for cutting us off because I think we could probably talk for like four hours.

Lindsay: Yep.

Kimberly: You would be like that’s the worst coaching skills podcast.

Lindsay: People stopped listening three hours ago. All right. Well, obviously, we’re going to have to have you back on because we have a lot to talk about.

Kimberly: We have a lot to talk about, yeah.

Lindsay: Thank you so much.

Kimberly: Yeah, thank you.

Lindsay: And everybody go find Kimberly.

Kimberly: And everybody sign up for all of Lindsay’s things.

Lindsay: That’s true. All right, bye.

Kimberly: Bye.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Mastering Coaching Skills. If you want to learn more about my work, come visit me at lindsaydotzlafcoaching.com. That’s Lindsay with an A, D-O-T-Z-L-A-F.com. see you next week.