Hey, this is Lindsay Dotzlaf, and you are listening to Mastering Coaching Skills episode 282.

To really compete in the coaching industry, you have to be great at coaching. That’s why every week, I will be answering your questions, sharing my stories, and offering tips and advice so you can be the best at what you do. Let’s get to work.

Hey coach, I have something really special for you today, which is a conversation with my incredible friend, Maggie Reyes. She has been on the podcast before, so you might recognize that name. You might even know Maggie. But today, we talk about something super important, which is coaches and mental health: their own mental health.

And we even dig in a little bit to the difference between therapy and coaching and so many other important things for coaches. So, I beg you to listen to this one. It’s super important, and I can’t wait to hear what you think. So, with no further ado, let’s dig into my conversation with Maggie.

Hello, hello. I am so thrilled you’re here today. You have been here before. People love it when you’re on. So go ahead and introduce yourself, tell everybody who you are and, one more time, what you do. Maggie: Hey everyone. My name is Maggie Reyes. I am a feminist marriage coach, which we should unpack at some point. I am also one of Lindsay’s biggest fans. I’m her friend. I’m her client in her membership. I’m so excited to be on this show about mastering coaching skills because I’m also a person who deeply believes in the craft of coaching.

And I find it endlessly inspiring the way that Lindsay talks about mastering coaching skills and models that for all of us. And so, I can’t wait to just talk about everything.

Lindsay: Well, I love you. I’m so glad you’re here. We are very good friends. People maybe should know that, so if it sounds like that’s coming across here, that’s why, because it’s real. So, I asked you originally to come on here. I thought we could talk about the membership a little bit because you did join the membership, which blew my mind. I was so excited you were there.

And you had, you’ve kind of given me a couple of things, like, “Hey, you need to tell people this,” or, “You need to…” You know, it’s just kind of fun having a friend who’s like, “Hey, here’s what’s going on. People don’t know about this part. You need to talk about it.”

So that’s one of the reasons that I wanted to have you here. But also, you have been talking about on your social media and with me as your friend, you’ve been talking about some personal things you have going on that, and there’s a lot of overlap between that and your coaching that I thought might be super valuable for coaches to hear us talk about because it’s something that’s very important, I think to both of us to explore. So I thought we’d start there.

Maggie: Do it. Go for it.

Lindsay: Okay. So, maybe I’ll let you because I want it to be like in your words kind of what you’ve had going on and what you’ve shared. Maybe just a couple of words about like what, what you’ve had going on and what you’ve been sitting with for a while.

Maggie: So, I think before we started recording, I loved how you sort of framed it as like, coaches and mental health. So, I have talked a lot about going through menopause and perimenopause and all of the emotional roller coaster that has been. Last year, I had some really intense like family situations come up, which I don’t know how much detail I’ll say about that only because I don’t want to start crying in the middle of the episode, which could happen.

But anyway, I had some really intense family situations, and I started therapy. Which, by the way, I Googled “feminist therapist Florida” to see, I really needed somebody who was sort of aligned with my values and who understood like intersectionalities and all the different systems that we live in and how they affect our mental health. And I really felt like if I talked to a person who wasn’t educated in that realm when it’s something that I talk about every day, I just didn’t think that therapy would be useful.

So, I am so grateful I found my therapist and she had that in her like headline or whatever. And then as we started working together, she’s like, “Oh, yeah, my major before I did therapy was like women’s studies.” And I’m like…

Lindsay: I love that for you.

Maggie: So we can talk about like looking for a coach, looking for a therapist. Look for people that meet your values.

Lindsay: Yes.

Maggie: And we will be talking about the things that we value, so you will find us when you look for that for whatever thing you’re looking for. And so my therapist, brilliant woman that I love, I was having trouble sleeping. And we were talking about that.

And she suggested that I see a psychiatric nurse that she trusts and has worked with before and said, let’s rule out anything physiological, let’s just check what’s going on in a very calm and comforting way. Like, it wasn’t alarmist. It wasn’t like freaking me out or anything. She’s like, “Let’s just check,” which is so interesting because I as a coach have done that when I have had clients with situations that go beyond the scope of coaching.

I have many, many, many times said, “Hey, I can help you with this part and this part. This other part, we could explore what could be supportive around that.” And so, it was just so interesting to receive the same care that I’ve given. So that’s the genesis of what I’m about to say next, which is I had this conversation with the psychiatric nurse, and she asked me, you know, an endless amount of questions.

And the conclusion that she came to was really interesting because she said I had depression, and then I also have a lot of symptoms of ADHD. And when we talked about medicine, one thing I loved that she did was she described a bunch of different therapeutic interventions and how they would affect and what they would look like and how they affect the body, and then she let me choose what called to me, which I thought was so amazing.

And so, I started on a medicine called Wellbutrin, which helps both with depressive symptoms, but it also helps with ADHD symptoms, which I was like, let’s try that one. And that was really life-changing to start the medicine. So I’ll just say a little bit, I know there’s a lot of people that hesitate to take medicine or feel some kind of stigma around taking medicine.

And I just want to say, not every medicine is right for every person, and that is true, and that is real, and that’s okay. I take high blood pressure medication as well, and it took us like I want to say three to four different medicines before we found something that didn’t have side effects that were really disruptive. So I’ve been through the path of taking something that really didn’t work for me and having to like keep at it and keep at it until we find something that did.

So I really want to say that, and I really just want to say, if you’re hesitant and if it’s something that somebody that you love is recommending, whether it’s recommending to see a psychiatric support of some kind or recommending to try a medicine of some kind, to really think about what is the reason to hesitate for that because if we had a cold or a flu or broke our leg and went to the hospital, we don’t refuse getting a cast.

We wouldn’t say, “No, no, no, my leg is going to heal. It’ll be fine, right?” without a cast. But we do that with this. And so I just want to say, be a person, you know, in your life, whoever’s listening to this, that says, “Would you refuse a cast at the hospital?” If you wouldn’t refuse that, then please consider that medicine could be supportive.

So this is kind of like what happened. Those are like the facts of what happened, but the way that your support and the membership support was really, oh I might get emotional. So we’re just going to cry in this episode. Whatever, if it happens, it happens. It was really supportive, I knew that I wanted to talk about it publicly. And I always say in my coaching calls like, “We make space for tears.” And it’s so interesting that I am challenged to make space for my tears. But…

Lindsay: I make space for all of your tears. You know that. And they are welcome here.

Maggie: I know. I love that. I love that. So…

Lindsay: Can I actually pause you? I want to come back to what you’re about to say in just a second. And first, I’ll just share just for the listeners and for you, I think you know this, but maybe not. I have talked about this. I used to be very, I mean, I’m always very open about it, but I used to talk about it more. I just haven’t talked about it in a while.

Before I was a coach, before I found coaching, was having panic attacks all the time. And I was on anxiety meds and they changed my life. And the way my doctor described it is like sometimes your brain needs like a reset, and it needs to like feel what it’s like to be not in that heightened state because it’s, it’s almost like it’s just that’s just, I don’t know that she said these words, but how I interpreted it, and maybe there these are more like coach terms, but it’s like that’s just the well-worn path. That’s like the worked muscle. It just knows how to go there so easily.

And so yeah, I just wanted to, I just feel like that’s an important piece is like, Yeah, I no longer take medicine, but it did exactly its job. It did the reset. Also, I found coaching, which has changed my life forever. And I can’t even remember the last time I had a panic attack. So I think that that’s like…

Maggie: Yeah, it’s the best.

Lindsay: It’s just so good to just give yourself permission to do what you need to do to take care of yourself.

Maggie: I love that.

Lindsay: And so, maybe my question for you is, and one reason that I thought it was important to talk about this is sometimes I hear coaches say things like, “I’m a coach, so I shouldn’t” dot dot dot, right? “I shouldn’t be feeling this way because I know how to change my thoughts,” or “I shouldn’t be experiencing this,” or “I should be better than this,” or “know better,” or just whatever, some form of like, “I shouldn’t need help.”

And I’m curious if anything like that came up for you throughout maybe either your decision to get the help or your decision to eventually, which we’ll come to, but your decision to share it.

Maggie: I didn’t have that flavor of things. I have seen that as well of like, “I should have figured this out by now,” or like, “I should know this already.” I do see that a lot, and I just want to speak to that first before I tell you the flavor that I had.

So, I think it’s a function of this hierarchical society that we live in because “I should be better than needing help” implying that needing help is somehow worse, as opposed to we’re all humans, interdependent on each other. We literally can’t function without each other. I always tell people, open your refrigerator, and you can do this for coaching homework if you want, and look at everything in your refrigerator and where it came from.

So like, I have pizza from Chicago in my refrigerator. I have grapes from Chile. I have like apples from, I don’t know, Mexico. Like, we need each other to survive for real, like for real. And then when we go in our day-to-day life, we’re like, “Oh, I shouldn’t need to get help.” Guess what? You get help all day, all the time.

Lindsay: That example is so simple but so powerful. Like if I could only eat what I could grow here at my house, we would be in trouble.

Maggie: Grass, girl. You’d be eating grass.

Lindsay: Right.

Maggie: Anyway, so, so I just wanted to say that about that part of it. And then for me, the flavor that I had was, so I got diagnosed with depression. And if you’ve ever met me or talked to me or hear me speaking now, you will see that I’m a very enthusiastic person. To myself, I’m also an enthusiastic person. Like I associate myself with my enthusiasm and my passion and delight and awe and wonder for life. And I’m like a person who just gets excited about the smallest things and, and that’s always been sort of part of who I am.

So to reconcile in my brain, I’m like, wait, but that’s not who matches with how I think I am. That took me some time in therapy and self-coaching to really see that I could be this person who is enthusiastic and has depression, is capable of joy and is also capable of really like I call them doom attacks. That like juxtaposition in my brain, that took me a minute to really reconcile.

So that was one, that was the biggest one was my own sort of altering of my self-concept. And then part of that was like, and depression isn’t everything. It isn’t all of me. It is just one thing in me. So I was like, “But wait, I’m happy about this. I’m looking forward to this other thing.” Like there were things that, I’m still feeling joy about all these things. I’m like, “How can I be depressed? I don’t understand.”

But then when I looked at the symptoms of depression, and I looked at like difficulty starting things and difficulty being excited about things and difficulty like, whatever. If you look up any list, I looked at that list and I was like, I have all of those things. And so that was like a revelation of I can have both of these things happening at the same time, and it’s not an all or nothing thinking, right?

And I know that it’s different. You know, there are people, millions of people have like major depression where they feel only one, like flavor. They don’t feel the access to joy that I felt. But even in that, I want to be like a mental health advocate that says it could look a variety of ways, and however it looks for you doesn’t invalidate how it feels for you, and it doesn’t invalidate what you’re experiencing, and it’s also part of like the human experience.

So that was another flavor of like how I received my own diagnosis, so to speak. And then I got really scared. And in the worst doom attack I had, I was Googling, “Is depression a disability? Will I be able to work? Like, can I still function?” It was real like, it was a doom attack. Like, I freaked out my husband so much that he’s like, “If we have to sell the house, we’ll figure it out.” Like it was bad, okay? I slept on it. I recovered. I started taking the medicine, and like I’m in a different place now.

But I want to convey to people that are listening the level to which I was like trying to reconcile this diagnosis with like my life and how it, how it would proceed. And I Googled “successful people with depression.” Like I wanted to like read articles and be like, “Could you have this and like live a life?” And it seems like, it might seem really obvious because I mean we’re coaches, we deal with like a different aspect of mental health, right? But we still deal with mental health things like every day, all the time. It’s like I’ve read so many articles, I’ve read so many books.

And still, when I am now the person being diagnosed, I’m like, wait, what? And I had to like wrap my brain around that. And I found some article on like Oprah Daily with like all these like famous people that had depression and I’m just like, let me read about all of them. I read this article, and for some reason, there’s an actor named Jon Hamm that is very popular, but isn’t even particularly someone I especially follow or anything.

And he talked about having depression. His mom had passed, and it wrecked him, and he was very like open in talking about that. And I’m like, “Jon Hamm, who’s been in a million movies and a million TV shows and everybody loves this man and he’s obviously capable of showing up to work and learning his lines and like doing his thing.” I’m like, “If he could do it, I can figure this out.” And for some reason, like Jon Hamm became like my muse.

Lindsay: I love him, so I love this for you.

Maggie: So there you go. That was my flavor.

Lindsay: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I can see that. And now that you’re saying that, I do remember you actually messaging me something along those lines. And I don’t know if I said this to you or if I just thought it in my head and I thought like, when I talk to you, I need to tell you this.

But my thought is like, oh, right, but depression, like experiencing depression isn’t your personality, right? Like, it’s not, depression is not a personality. It’s a, something that you’re experiencing at this time in your life, not like, okay, now you have this thing and it’s forever just who you are.

Maggie: And I did not know that at the time.

Lindsay: Yeah. Well, and I think when you’re the one in it, just like, just like when you, it’s why coaches get coaches, right? Because when you’re the one in it, whatever it is you’re in, drama, feeling depressed, feeling anxious, whatever the thing is, you can’t, it’s really hard to see out of it. It’s really hard.

Maggie: 100%.

Lindsay: Whatever it is you’re in, right? It’s always hard to like take a step back and logically look at like, okay, here are all the actual facts and this isn’t who I am. It’s just something I’m experiencing right now.

Maggie: Yes.

Lindsay: Okay. So, and then at some point you decided, “I should share this.” And before you tell me like what the process for that was, why did you, how did you come to that or, or like, why did you think that was important?

Maggie: So after I wrapped my brain around what I was experiencing, and of course, and I started taking the medicine and it was almost immediately helpful. Like, I would describe it as I went through not having access to my resourcefulness is what I call it. As I read more about it, I think it relates to executive function, but for me, that’s what it felt like. It’s like I, like I know the level of resourcefulness I have had my whole life and I just didn’t feel like I had access to like that bucket.

And so once I had access to my resourcefulness again, I was able to think more clearly, more deeply. I was like, I’m a coach. There are people on earth who look up to me. They listen to my podcast, they take my advice, they do the things that I suggest, they work, you know, all these kinds of things.

And I thought, what would it mean to me if somebody that I admired said, “Hey, all these things you like about me, like thank you, I love them. And by the way, I also have this thing.” As soon as I came upon that thought, I was like, I didn’t want to feel like I was hiding anything. I also felt like you don’t have to tell every single thing about your life to people. I don’t think you owe people that at all, but I have a value, a personal value of congruence and a certain level of transparency.

So it’s not 100% transparency in the sense that like I’m not going to say every single thing that ever happened, but how I want to walk in the world has always been that if you, you know, read my blog or listen to my podcast or see me somewhere, and then you meet me in person, I want that to feel like, “Oh yeah, that tracks. That’s who this person is.” And that has always been important to me, even when nobody read any of the things that I wrote or whatever. That’s just like fundamental to me.

So once I sort of wrapped my brain around this is something that’s going to be part of my life now, that is part of my life now that I will be living with and navigating and working through, then it felt really imperative to decide how I wanted to share it and to decide in what way and how I would approach it and to think on it a little bit to be really intentional about how I shared it. So that was kind of like the thought process.

Lindsay: I love that maybe it wasn’t this exact thought, but some form of like, so that other people don’t have to go find that it’s Jon Hamm who they…

Maggie: Yeah.

Lindsay: …who they can compare themselves to and be like, “Okay, I guess I guess if he can do it, I can do it.”

Maggie: Yes.

Lindsay: I love it. Okay. And I personally, as your friend, but also if I wasn’t your friend and I was just watching and I was, you know, just a coach who was in your world and just watching what you were doing, I think actually because of what you shared earlier about that reconciling of the that like this is who I know myself to be as a person, and this is not congruent with that. This feels confusing.

There’s something about that makes it actually even more powerful, even more inspiring because it’s like, oh, that is the person I know you to be. And to know like, oh, and, you know, again, if I didn’t know you because I have more behind-the-scenes knowledge, but if I was just watching, I think my thought would be, “Wow, like that’s, you really just never know. You never know what someone’s going through and you can’t tell just by the way they might show up on a Zoom call.”

Maggie: Yeah. And there’s also so much stigma around mental health, getting support, like all those kinds of things, right? Then I felt a responsibility also, like a further responsibility as a human, as a person who, like I consider myself a leader. Like in whatever way that I do that, I was like, oh, what is my responsibility as a person in this profession, as a person who practices what I practice, who teaches what I teach? What is my responsibility?

And then that just became very obvious that I really wanted it to just be something that I would freely talk about all of those things.

Lindsay: So you decided you were going to share it. And maybe this now will lead into kind of what you were talking about what you started to go into a little bit earlier, where you kind of used The Complete Coach, my membership, the community as a little bit of like a, I would say like a test ground, maybe, or like a, to put some feelers out of like how it would be received. But I want to know, is that how you would describe it? I want to hear it like in your words.

Maggie: Okay, here’s what happened and then I’ll explain. I decided I was going to speak about it publicly. And I’m a big fan of what I call emotional titration, which is we do things in little pieces and we see how our body reacts, how we feel about it, and then we do it bigger and bigger.

So, when it came to talking about this, I was like, I need to talk to a couple people. So I had obviously, I had told my friends ahead of time and felt very supported and very loved in that. And then I thought, okay, I need to like expand my circle a little bit and I need to just tell a group of people where I felt safe sharing is, that was my thought about it. It wasn’t like how will it land, it was I want to tell a group of people where I would feel safe to share this information.

And immediately when I thought where would I do that, I was like, “I’m going to share it in The Complete Coach community. I feel like the level of like the discussions and conversations that we have are very supportive. Everybody’s is very much like, I don’t know, if anybody has ever been to like a Toastmasters, when you go to Toastmasters, you’re practicing speaking, you’re practicing speaking where everybody’s on your side. Like, everybody’s like supporting you and like cheering you on. It’s a great feeling. If you’ve never been to Toastmasters, I highly recommend it.

And that’s how I felt in The Complete Coach, which is like, we’re all sort of in our lab doing whatever we’re doing with our life, with our, with our work, whatever’s going on, but everybody’s sort of like on your side is, is the vibe.

And so, I had written out what I wanted to say, what I thought I wanted to say, but I wrote it when I was very emotional. So I was just like, the thing that was in The Complete Coach actually isn’t what I ended up publicly sharing. I went back and edited it when I was less emotional. But anyway, I posted there, and I think it’s okay to share this.

Another reason why I posted there is in The Complete Coach, you had been on a conference or something, and you had asked me to do one of the calls. I did that call, and it was a very effective call. If you watch the call, the people that we were coaching like, “Oh yeah, that makes sense. Let me write that down. I’m going to do that.” It was like you could objectively say it was a really great call. So I went in and I posted and I said, “I just want all of you to know that we’re on that call, that I cried before the call and I cried after the call. Just to level set, right?”

And that felt important to share for me to be like, guess what? I can work. I can have this thing going on, and I can focus on another human and be laser-focused and support them, and then I can deal with my thing, right? So normalizing that in my own brain was very powerful.

And then of course, I shared and I told everyone, you know, I’m going to tell the greater world, so to speak, but I wanted to share here first. And then people were so kind and so supportive and that felt like receiving like a warm group hug was like the vibe which was for sure what I needed to deal with something that felt as delicate, as important, as powerful as talking about being diagnosed with depression could be.

And I was so grateful to have that community. And I don’t even remember if I messaged you, but I definitely thought this, that I was like, “The community that you curate, like the way that you talk about mastering coaching skills and having depth and nuance and putting your client first and being client-centered.” Like all of these values that you have, the people that are naturally attracted to that type of community obviously share many, many, many of those values.

So it felt like such a kindred spirits type of energy that felt really supportive and I believe really gave me sort of like the strength, like a little vitamin to then go and tell everybody and just let the chips fall where they may, kind of thing because I kind of knew I had this safe place to come back to if like, if something, nothing terrible happened, but if something upsetting were to happen, I’d be like, “Okay, I have a safe space that I can come back to.”

Lindsay: Yes. I love that piece. That feels, I hadn’t considered that part, that very last part that you just said and that is probably an important piece of all of this of just knowing like, “Okay, I’ve already shared this here. Now it will make it much easier if, who knows what would happen, happened and I need a place to talk about it, they already know and they’re already, like you said, like they’re already on your side,” right?

Maggie: Yes.

Lindsay: I as the person running that community felt, honestly felt honored that you felt like felt safe enough to share it in that space. And I think you even said something like, “I hope this is okay.” And I was like, “Oh my gosh, of course. I love that this is, that you’re leading by example and that you’re open to sharing it.” And I’m just really grateful for that. So I want to tell you that.

Maggie: Thank you.

Lindsay: Okay. So, and then you shared it to all of what, Facebook, maybe? And Instagram?

Maggie: Yeah. I shared it on my Facebook group, which is public, and I shared it on my Instagram as well. And the response was overwhelmingly supportive and kind and generous and beautiful. And so many people reached out to me, both on my public post but also in private ways to say, “I’ve been through something similar. I’ve learned to deal with it. If you want to talk, let me know. How can I support you?” So that was one thing is like incredible amounts of support.

And then the other thing was people saying what I my hypothesis, basically, “Oh, seeing that you have this and you talk about this and you are who you are and how I perceive you to be, oh, maybe I could be okay having this and still have whatever my version of success is or work through things,” or whatever. So many people. It was my hypothesis, but it’s still shocked me a little bit.

Like it was the amount of people that felt sort of seen and heard in my own story was inspiring to me, healing to me, felt supportive to me. Someone also said, “Oh, how I shared it was really meaningful to them.” Like, they couldn’t believe that I would like share such a thing. And then I went through and I told them what I just explained now of how I did it like safely.

So I want to say that to everybody listening. Like, you hear us talking, both of us have podcasts, both of us have been doing public work for many years. Our nervous system is acclimated to sharing things in a way that could be overwhelming to someone who doesn’t have the level of experience that we have. Yes. And even myself having all of those experiences, I still titrated it to a way that I felt that was safe for me. So I just want to say to someone, if you’re inspired to share something you haven’t shared before, first of all, kudos. I love you. I’m so proud of you.

And find a safe person, whether that’s messaging me or Lindsay somewhere or something like that, pace yourself and really take a beat and think about who is the safe person or the safe group of people that you would feel comfortable with before you go out and tell everyone where it could be overwhelming and you could have reactions that could be difficult to receive. So I just want to, I feel very protective of giving that context to it.

Lindsay: Yes. Yeah, I think that’s really important. I appreciate that you brought that up. And even before we started this recording, right? I checked in and I was like, “Hey, I thought, you know, we’d kind of mention this, but are you, do you feel good about it? Are you okay talking about it?” And, yeah, I just think that piece is always, always very important when it comes to, you know, clients often ask me some form of like, “How much of my story should I share?”

This is something that comes up a lot. And especially if they are coaching on something that they themselves have kind of experienced and worked through. And I always say like, it is always up to you. I think, of course, there could be pieces of your story that are probably very powerful for people to hear. And it’s your story and if that is not something that feels comfortable to you right now, that could change at any moment.

You might feel differently next week or next month. But it’s yours and you don’t ever have to share any pieces of it. And that’s okay too. And some people, I think, are not as open as naturally, maybe. I think I do feel like you and I are fairly just like naturally open humans.

Sometimes I share too much, I think, where I’m like, “Should I have said that?” Whatever. It’s fine. But yeah, I just really love that you are willing to come on and talk about this. Is there anything else around this piece of it that feels important that you want to talk about?

Maggie: Yes. I want to say, I’ve now, so I got diagnosed in December, and we’re recording this in March. So I’ve now been on the meds for a few months. They’ve been incredibly helpful. I don’t feel the same way. I haven’t had a doom attack in three months.

So that’s what I want to say. I want to say like, a diagnosis is not a verdict on what your life can be. Also, every kind of support that feels good to you is valid. So, I’ve been a person who has done a lot of coaching. I’ve been in coaching programs, I’ve had personal coaches, I’ve had coaches with different specialties like for many, many years.

This is the first time in my life that I’m also in therapy. So now I have a therapist. I have programs like The Complete Coach that I’m in where I’m coached. I have my psychiatric nurse that I also meet with. And then I’m still having the trouble sleeping. We’re troubleshooting my sleeping. And my primary doctor, she recommended that I look into something called CBT-I, which is cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia.

And now I have a sleep therapist who is helping me troubleshoot what’s happening with my sleep very specifically. And so now I have a whole team, and I’m so grateful, right? And so it’s a privilege. Like not everybody can have the thing that I have and I want to call that out. I have health insurance, I live in the US, I have insurance, I have support around having this thing.

But I want to say whatever kind of support calls to you is it. So for somebody, it’s pottery. For somebody, it’s adopting a dog or holding babies in the ICU. Like, like whatever it looks like, we judge ourselves for sometimes for the support we need or for what we’re craving or stuff like that.

I remember going through a difficult moment and I was like texting Lindsay, I’m like, “I need to talk to you.” Like, what I craved was like talking to you and I was like, I’m going to ask everybody around me for whatever I need and that was another thing that I think now has come to me that I want to say because I know coaches are listening to this, I was so used to the persona of I support everyone.

Lindsay: Yes.

Maggie: I, and I love doing that, and it’s my joy and my pleasure. And it was very difficult for me for a minute, like it took a beat around, “No, I need so much support and I don’t even have the bandwidth to support other people right now. Like, I love you and I can’t.” Like, it’s not in me in this moment. I need the help this time. And I had to accept that. And then I had to act on it.

And then I was like, I am reaching out. I am booking calls with my friends. I am going out with my husband, et cetera. So I just wanted to say, when you have that persona in your own mind of like, I’m the one who helps. And then you go to like, “No, we’re interconnected, interdependent humans. I can both help and be helped.” It takes a minute and it’s also so worth it to just receive and be supported. It’s also incredibly healing.

So I think the medicine has helped me a lot, but all the things I have done in order to like survive and work through this, including the support of friends. My husband and I actually met at a metaphysical, I call it hippie-dippie-crunchy, in a loving way, church. And we’ve been going to our church and that’s been amazing and having community and all that. So whatever it is that feels supportive and allows you to receive, that might feel hard. That’s okay. But it’s worth it. It’s also part of the healing process.

Lindsay: I especially love that part of the conversation because I think that, especially when we talk about maybe the decision of taking medicine to help with something like this, I think this part of the conversation also is so important where yes, medicine is amazing. I’m a big fan. Like do what, just exactly what you said. If it feels right for anybody, like do what you need to do, 100%.

And I’m also a big fan of asking yourself, what else? Like how else am I going to support myself through this instead of just like, “Okay, I’m just going to take this pill and then it’s just going to be this magic thing,” which it can sometimes feel like magic, especially, it sounds like in your case when it just pretty quickly, you can feel a difference.

Maggie: Yeah.

Lindsay: And also, especially for long-term, I think, it’s like, what other support just in general do I need through this? And so I love that you brought that up because I think it’s also just a really important piece of the conversation.

The nice thing about right now, and of course, I say this from a place of privilege, but in our modern world, just like you said, there are just so many ways to support yourself that don’t even necessarily require health insurance, right? That are more creative or spiritual or, you know, whatever, whatever that looks like for every person.

Maggie: There’s a, I think it’s a Rumi quote that says, “Open your hands if you want to be held.” I might be paraphrasing, but it’s something like that. And I think something else that I really want to encourage people to do is open your mouth and say the thing. Find the safe people that it feels safe to say. Like don’t just say it to anybody, okay?

Lindsay: Yep.

Maggie: But I have been a person who has in other seasons of my life been very closed off and not shared and just not told anybody and sort of carried stuff by myself.

And what I have found is the blessing of the kindness, in some cases of strangers and of people who know and care that because I’ve said something, are now able to meet me in a different way, are able to support me in a different way.

Our connection has gotten deeper and more profound and more beautiful. And so in a society that kind of rewards that stoicism of like, “I will just be…” I don’t know how to say it. But everybody knows what I mean. Yeah. Like opening your mouth and saying the thing, you really sometimes don’t realize how powerful that can be. And I just want to be someone in your ear saying, “Tell someone.”

Lindsay: I can maybe put words to what you were saying. I think in particularly American culture, there’s a very much, it’s very individualistic, right? Which is like, I’m fine. I don’t need anything from anyone. I’ve got this. I’ve got myself. And that can be rewarded sometimes in many different ways. And, yeah, I think sometimes just hearing the reminder like, it’s okay to say, “Actually, I’m not okay and, and hand up, like I need some help.”

Maggie: Yeah. And, okay, one more thing. If you’re a coach, obviously you’re a coach listening to this. Going through this, my own self-coaching, my own therapy, support, all the things has only increased my skill. It has only helped me serve my clients even better. I talked to one of my clients after I had made that sort of public declaration. She’s like, “I had no idea you were going through any of this. Our calls have been amazing.” And it was such great feedback to receive.

But I do want to say that because I know people will worry like, “Oh my gosh, like if I have this and then I talk about it or, or if I have this, can I still show up for people?” or all that kind of [unintelligible] stuff. I just want to say my depth of space-holding, the level of things I can be present to has deepened. And the way my brain can process information and patterns and things like that has also deepened. So I just want to say that for people.

Lindsay: Yeah. I’m sure there’s a maybe a level at which it could affect it more to where it might affect your coaching. But I often say to my clients that for me, this is obviously very different than depression. But when, for example, when I’m sick, I ask myself this like how, you know, the deciding of like, can I show up for sessions today? I have become aware that actually sometimes when I’m sick, not if I’m so sick that I should just be laying in bed or laying on the bathroom floor or whatever, right? Not that kind of sick.

But if it’s kind of like a low level or mid level, like I can sit at my desk and do this, I actually think sometimes it makes my coaching a little more laser-focused because I have to really zoom in, only pay attention to the client. I really have to be sure I’m like not being distracted by my physical body. So, in case no one’s ever heard me say that or in case you’re wondering about that, I really do find that to be true.

So people ask me all the time, and I’m sure you get this question too, “What’s the difference between therapy and coaching?” And I have a hard time sometimes answering it, not because I don’t know an answer, it’s actually more like I know 10 answers because I think it depends on what type of therapy, what type of coach, there’s just so many variables. And so I’m just curious, just you probably had an answer before, but I’m curious from just your personal experience, what have you seen is the difference?

Maggie: Yes. Okay, this is so fun. My therapist actually asked me that a couple of sessions ago, and we had a whole conversation about it, which was really…

Lindsay: I love that.

Maggie: I think if you’re with a very skilled therapist and a very skilled coach, there are scenarios where it’s 80% the same. Because of the also the level of which coach trainings have evolved. Like there’s people who are coaches who train in something like internal family systems and they’re coaches and they train in that or different things like that, right? Different modalities where it has been adapted to coaching and there is in-depth, truly meaty training in these areas. So I think because of that, there are very highly skilled coaches where it’s 80%.

Lindsay: Yes.

Maggie: The difference, I think, is if a traumatic event or a traumatic memory or something that not just a stress cycle dysregulation, which coaching is fine for, but an actual traumatic thing, my therapist can sort of keep going where my coach would have to stop and say, “How do we handle this?” To me as a client of therapy and coaching, that has been the biggest difference.

Lindsay: Okay. I love that. Very similar to what my answer would have been. I just always like, I like coaches to hear it in so many different ways because some coaches get really hung up on that and let it like hold them back a little bit.

All right, so let’s just pivot a little bit, although, of course, it builds on kind of what you are already talking about. So one of the reasons I wanted to have you on is currently as we’re, as when this comes out, The Complete Coach will be open for enrollment. And you messaged me not too long ago and you said, “Hey, I joined your membership and here’s why, and you need to tell everybody. But it’s for them because I wasn’t sure if it was for me or not and here are all the reasons why.”

So, first, maybe just speak to that. Like what did you mean when you sent me that message? And actually, let me say something too. Like, of course, I want everybody to join The Complete Coach. Totally, we’ll put the link in the show notes. You can check it out. But this is relevant outside of that. Like, this is a, I think just a conversation about coaching spaces and how they differ and who they’re for and all of that. Okay, now, go for it.

Maggie: So at a global level, right, we want to explain what we do so people know if it can help them or not help them. So for example, I’m a feminist marriage coach. I have a very specific set of values around that. And if somebody was, let’s say, a very conservative Christian woman that has a cultural narrative around how they submit to their husbands, I would not be the right coach for them and they should not hire me because those are not my values.

So I just want to at a global level, give you a really clear example of like, we want to say what we do and how we do it so people can sort themselves out into places where they’ll get the support that they need. I still want that woman to be supported and I even have somebody I would refer them to, but it’s not me, right? So…

Lindsay: Right.

Maggie: So that’s on a global level. So with The Complete Coach, when Lindsay first, first launched it, and this is for everybody, right? When we first start talking about something new, we don’t really know how to talk about it. So we talk about it in a bunch of different ways until we figure it out. So that’s like totally normal. Even like for anybody who’s listening, for somebody like Lindsay who’s launched a million things and has talked about things for years.

Lindsay: I’m still trying to figure out how to talk about it, to be clear.

Maggie: So she had sent a couple of emails about it and I got the impression that it was like for beginners. And then I really was like, “Oh, it’s not for me because I’m a seasoned coach and it’s just for beginners, so it must not be for me.” But the core of The Complete Coach is that you can get coached on your life, you can get coached on coaching skills, and you can get business coaching all in one place for a very affordable price.

And when I took out the for beginners, I was like, “Would I want a place where I could get coached on my life, where I could get coached on business questions, where if I had wanted to consult a case or something like that, I could consult a case with people that are, I respect their values and the way that they filter how they think about coaching situations,” right? Like I very much want that, right?

And so I don’t know, I think you, you had written something where I was like, listen, rewrite it. Because this made me feel like I was about to join, and then I didn’t. And then it took me like five more days than it should have because, because of the way that was written, and then I just joined anyway and then I told you like write something else. Write it for me.

Lindsay: Yeah. And I’m so grateful. Everybody needs friends like this to just even if you don’t necessarily have this exact situation, you can always have another coach read your, you know, copy, your emails, or whatever, and give you feedback. But I was so grateful, and I, it really opened my mind. I think at that point, I was like, who, who is it for?

And something you and I talked about before we started recording is one thing I’ve, I have, I don’t know, struggled is the right word, but that I’ve just been working through is figuring out how to sell it because it is, I think, different than most things that I’ve seen or that I’ve been a part of. And so learning how to talk about the way that I structure it is designed to meet coaches wherever they are.

Maggie: Yes.

Lindsay: But I wasn’t quite sure how to say that because I think we’re so used to hearing, you know, this has to be for someone specific, right? Is it like a brand new coach? Is it someone who isn’t a coach yet? Is it someone who has been coaching for 10 years? Is it, right? Like you have to pick one. And I coach people on this all the time, but it’s still in my mind that was something that was kind of getting in my way. And I was able to see it so much more clearly when you shared that feedback with me. So, I’m really grateful for that. But now that you’re in, so you decided to join. And what are your thoughts now? Is it for you?

Maggie: Okay, I made notes. Okay, so I’m pulling out my notes. Okay. First of all, I wanted to say that it is true, I think, that you want to describe it to, so people can self-select on whether they think the coaching or the teaching is going to be relevant to them.

And I definitely have been in programs and situations, like group teachings or stuff like that, trainings, where I was more advanced than the thing, and then I felt like I went to a call and I got nothing out of it. I always get something out of it. So sometimes, when that happens, what I get out of it is, oh, I know this. I’m so, like, I’m solid. I know this inside out. Like, so it is still useful, okay? I want to just reflect that for people. But…

Lindsay: Yeah.

Maggie: But I’m not going to spend a lot of my time in that type of scenario. And so I’ve come to a bunch of these calls, and I have two things I want to say about it. One that was a sort of a byproduct I was not expecting at all was because Lindsay’s energy is so, I would say, like stabilizing, like this calm, centered, grounded way that she is on the podcast, way that she is whether you see her.

I like to come to the calls and keep my camera off and like work on other things. And I, it’s a coaching call. It’s not designed like specifically as a co-working call where you’re going to work on other things, but there’s something about being in that energy of calmness and listening to people like working. Being a coach can be really lonely at times. You don’t have co-workers, you don’t have like coffee chats, or you know, you’re not gathering around the water cooler.

So I have more than once come to a call, not raised my hand, and gotten so much usefulness out of the call because I just was like, “Oh, I have this thing I want to do, and I’m going to do it like during that call.” That was not, I was not expecting that at all. And it was like, “Oh, this is really cool.” Like, bonus of being here. That was one thing.

The other thing is on, I would say in some of the business ones, I’ve gone to, I don’t know, two or three of them where the people that were being coached were more in a different stage of business than I was at and I would say more in the beginner area than advanced.

But the things they were being coached on were really relevant to me in a way that I hadn’t experienced in other scenarios, and I really, I was preparing for this interview and I was like, “Why? Like, what makes that be relevant to me when I’ve had so many experiences where if somebody is starting out, it really isn’t.”

And so what I came up with is that there’s a difference between principles and tactics. And a lot of programs are focused on tactics and you need tactics. Like nothing wrong with tactics. Like we love that. You need the checklist, you need to do stuff. But in Lindsay’s style of coaching and her approach, her like stance or point of view of how she addresses the things that people raise their hand about, she coaches through principles, not tactics.

And that makes it like an evergreen thing that applies no matter what stage of business you’re in because it’s not about the checklist, it’s how you’re thinking about what you’re doing. It’s how it lands for the client or how it lands for you or how it affects your life. And those things are incredibly applicable at any stage. So I’m curious, that’s my observation experiencing it on the receiving side.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Maggie: What are your thoughts about that?

Lindsay: Yeah, I think, you know, when I, I shared this with you a little bit and when I first started selling it, I think this is the thing that I was like, how do I say this? How do I describe it? I think I know this to be true about me, about the way I teach and about the way I coach. And how do I just say it?

And I decided, you know what? I’m not, just what I tell all my clients, like sometimes you just have to move and like figure it out as you go. And it for me, it wasn’t figuring out the like how to do it because I knew that was something I already innately do in my coaching. It was the like how to talk about it, how to structure even inside the membership for that to be clear and to make it all kind of cohesive and to work together.

And it’s something I’m still working on, but it was definitely intentional that piece. And that was my goal, and I think there was a part of me when I opened it that was like, “Hope this works.” You know, because I have, I definitely can think of other containers where I do this as well.

So it’s not like this style’s totally brand new to me. It was more just like, okay, I’m kind of going all in on it, right? And all in on like that’s actually what this whole container is. And I’m absolutely willing to talk about the specific strategies or tactics or whatever. It’s just not necessarily what’s in the, let’s say teaching, for example, or it’s not what I lead with.

So, even if I am discussing that with someone, there’s still the overall coaching, which I think is more of the, to use your words, like the principle of it all. And then like, okay, now let’s dig into like the strategy here at the end. And so, even if someone’s strategy is different than whatever it is we’re talking about, still the whole first part of the coaching is applicable.

And hopefully, my hope is like then the other clients are in their head thinking about like, what would my answer to this piece be? What’s the action I would take or what’s the strategy I would use here? What’s my version? Because that’s literally everything we do in the membership is like, what is, what’s your way? I’m here to help you find your way, not to just tell you like steps one through 20. Here’s your, everyone’s perfect path.

Maggie: I think that like one of your values that has always been that is let’s find your way, which is just so undogmatic. Like it’s so like, bring whatever it is you want to do and let’s find a way for you to do it the way it works for you, right? And just listening to you, it’s like in the business side, right? People can really kind of relate to principles versus tactics. I think because that’s so clear.

In mastering coaching skills, imagine Lindsay cannot give you the exact question to ask your client because every day is a new thing and they present in a different way. And even if you’re coaching them on one thing, right, it’s how they present. So the only way you can provide support is what is the principle, right? What is the point of view you’re going to have or the stance you’re going to take to support your client? And then what arises, what questions, what teachings, whatever.

So I just want to give that example too because obviously a third of the program is mastering your coaching skills and it’s like that’s where it doesn’t matter where you were trained, what modality you use, what is the principle underneath your modality is going to help you meet your client where they are. And that’s why it’s also so flexible. It’s like whatever background you have or wherever you are in your business because it’s principle-focused.

Lindsay: Yeah. I kind of think about it like I’m going to give you, if you think about like a house or a structure, I’m going to give you the, the framing, the loose, like here’s maybe where some walls are, but some of those are optional too. But here’s like a basic structure. And then you’re going to come in and make it yours. You’re going to decorate it, like choose the colors, pick the furniture and the pillows. And I think maybe that’s what’s different between like the way I coach versus the way some other people coach and teach, which is not wrong, it’s just different.

Maggie: Yeah.

Lindsay: And I think it’s like because my thought is like I want them to end with a business that they love and that they love running because I’ve coached enough coaches at this point where we’ve had to kind of unwind a lot of their business because they, it might be quite successful and they just are like, it’s like not my business. It’s not the way I want to do it. It’s not, you know, for whatever reason, it happens for many different reasons.

But because usually they’ve just like followed a strict like, here’s how you do it, and they just did that. And now it’s like, but I’m not enjoying it. And for me, it’s like if we’re running businesses, which can be hard and quite challenging sometimes, we might as well enjoy it. Otherwise, what’s the point?

Maggie: Yeah.

Lindsay: So, thank you for recognizing that and for helping me kind of put words to it and being here to talk about it so other people can hear it as well. Okay, the other thing you told me that you really enjoy, which selfishly, I’m going to say it’s become one of my favorite pieces of the membership, is the social hours.

So every month, we have at least one social call, and it’s always something a little different. Maybe it has a theme. Maybe it’s, you know, we had like a holiday call in December. This month, we’re having a, we’re actually, I’m having one of the, I don’t know if you saw this post, but I’m having one of the clients in the membership who works with, or she uses art in her coaching, which I find fascinating.

So she’s coming and kind of we’re co-leading the call and she’s doing an exercise that is a little more creative, a little more like everyone’s going to be doing this exercise. But it’s just always something that’s fun, that isn’t just like super serious. Let’s talk about coaching. Let’s talk about our businesses. It just allows us to like loosen up a little bit and to get to know each other and really helps, I think, foster that kind of community and connection piece, which feels super important to me.

Maggie: Yeah. Okay, so for everybody listening, I need you to know that if you join the membership, you can be a completely imperfect member and I will model that for you as follows. I had no idea what the social hour was, right? I had that thing with the co-working where I was like, “Oh, I like going to those calls because it’s co-working.” So I’m like, “Oh, there’s a call. I’m just going to go.” I had not looked at the email. I had no idea what the theme was going to be. I was just like, “I’m just coming.”

Lindsay: Which I love, by the way. I am about to write an email to this about this, I think to actually the members because, you know, there’s some members who don’t often come live. And I’m like, “Just show up. Like, just show up and hang out on the call. You don’t have to get coached. You don’t have to be prepared at all.” You can just show up and listen.

Maggie: Yeah. So she had done a social hour and I showed up. And then she had like questions. There were prompts. There was an activity. I was like, “Oh, this…” To me, I just thought we were going to hang out and people would like talk or share about their week or something. I don’t know. I thought it was like a happy hour or something. And then when you had these like questions and it was, I think it was maybe the end of the year or beginning of the year, I can’t remember, but it was like about your vision.

Lindsay: Oh yeah, the January one. Yep.

Maggie: Yeah, so it was like your vision and then the questions were very, like as everything Lindsay does is very simple and very profound at the same time. So incredibly like digestible, but at the same time you’re like, “Whoa, I didn’t even know that was in me. Like what?” So anyway, so she asked the questions and I was like, “Oh, this is great.” Like, and the questions were open-ended enough that it didn’t feel pressure-y, right?

And I think a lot of coaches in our coach trainings, we want to like show up and get the A and do it right and win at this and there’s we know we’re being evaluated, whether it’s to be certified or whether right, we’re being evaluated in some way.

Lindsay: Right.

Maggie: Or we’re in a very serious like business situation where we are like, we have to be in a particular mindset and like, just that sort of pressure-y which there’s a place for that. And it matters, it’s okay. Like there’s nothing wrong with that.

But it was so refreshing to be thinking about my business or about my life, because it was kind of like your business, your life, how everything all intertwines, which is what the membership is all about, how it all intertwines. It was so refreshing to be like thinking about these things without the pressure of the specific outcome or the specific goal of the month or the specific thing.

And that was incredibly refreshing and I think that helps you connect to the joy in your business and the like the joy in your life and the like, there’s something about allowing yourself to have your mind wander and your creativity expand without the performance piece of it that again, felt like a total bonus to me. I was like, “What is this?” And it was great.

So that was my experience going to the social hour and then I was like, “Oh, like you need to rename that because social hour just does not convey the level and depth of what that really is.” But now you all know. You who have listened to this episode know how simple yet deep and also fun. People were sharing really fun things about their vision and people were cheering them on and I think somebody was like writing a book or something and we were like, “Yeah, it’s going to be, you know, great.” And that energy of being in the energy also of people doing interesting things in the world and very different…

Lindsay: Yes. Learning stuff about everyone, right? Like, “Oh, I’m a musician also,” or “I’m a…” You know, I’m like, “Wait, what? I didn’t know this about you. That’s amazing.”

Maggie: Yeah.

Lindsay: I think it just makes, I just feel like it’s so important always to be like, “Yeah, I’m a coach and human.”

Maggie: Yeah. That’s actually a human…

Lindsay: They get to coexist.

Maggie: …and a coach. We just forget.

Lindsay: Yes. So many coaches forget all the time. I mean, including myself, right? Like, it is easy to get in your head about having a human moment sometimes. But I just think it’s so important. And so that is to me, like one of the rules I have on those calls is like there’s no coaching. So even if the activity, you know, that could have been a moment of coaching where people were like sharing these big dreams, big goals, big, you know, things that they’ve maybe never said out loud. Yeah.

And for me, it was like, no, that on this call because that’s the purpose of it. It’s like that is the whole point is maybe just saying it out loud and like claiming it without the pressure of, “Okay, what’s your first step?” or, “Now, what do you need coaching on when it comes to that?” or wherever else we love to go as coaches. But just to like claim it and say like, “This is a thing that I want to happen.”

And, yeah, that was really fun. And I love when you’re there.

Okay, I am so grateful for you. Is there anything that you wish I would have asked or that we did not get to?

Maggie: I would say, I think we covered the things that I wanted to make sure we said. I would say for everyone listening, what I, one of the things I hope you took away from this conversation is how human we all are and that never goes away. There’s no amount of coaching skill that’s going to change that.

And how important it is to have community. I think especially in the United States where you said earlier, we’re so individualistic, in many times, we haven’t even been modeled what community is or what it looks like or how it could be. There is all this stuff, articles about third spaces and how we’ve sort of lost these third spaces, like places where we would gather that wasn’t like for work or school.

Lindsay: Right.

Maggie: So having a community, we don’t like wake up in the morning thinking, I need a community. But we wake up in the morning lonely, or we wake up in the morning not knowing who to ask or what to say.

And I think that’s something a little bit intangible to talk about in the membership, but that because we’re here in this format, we can explore it a little bit more, which is having a community to support you, it’s like having this safety net like if you were a trapeze artist, where you’re doing these amazing feats in the air and you’re doing things that are like really hard and really difficult and you may never use that net, but having that net there helps you be more bold in the things you’re willing to do in the actual trapeze thing.

Lindsay: That’s such a good analogy. Hold on. What I love about that is also, you are going to use the net when you’re learning a new thing or when you’re trying a new thing, right? You’re not going to use it probably, hopefully, when you’re doing your act that you’ve practiced a million times. But when you’re learning the new, how to like, I don’t know what whatever they do, flip from one thing to the other, and you’ve never done it before, like of course you’re going to use the net. You’re going to fall on it so many times, and that’s exactly why it’s there.

Maggie: That’s it. It’s like the net is there to be used. And if you think about, like we were talking about being whether you’re new in your business, whether you’re seasoned in your business, or whatever stage that you’re in, whenever you do something new, you’re going to use the net. So whether you’re like, you were coaching somebody that was like in a freeze response and this really stood out to me because they were at the beginning of their business and they were coached on a specific thing.

And then I was in a freeze response at a completely like doing something that’s maybe much bigger and bolder maybe than what they were doing, but I was still having the same emotional response, right? And so having that net of like, you will always be doing new things, you will always be having new routines or new partners, which would be like new clients or new offers.

And so having that net there of like, “Oh, how does this affect my life? I want coaching support on that.” “Oh, what in what way do I need to evolve my skills to like hold a group or to do something different or to expand this modality that I just learned or whatever.” Like that net very practically supports the creativity and the magic and all of the healing that you bring in your coaching when you’re like on the trapeze…

Lindsay: Mhm. Yeah, I love that. Thank you. Thank you for that analogy. That’s really powerful for me as well. Just the visual of it. I love it. Okay. Tell them if they loved you and they’re like, somehow they’ve never heard of you, which seems insane to me. But let’s say they haven’t. Where can they find you? Tell them all the things. And we’ll put everything in the show notes, but just go ahead and tell them where they can find you.

Maggie: I just think it’s so funny. All my friends think everyone knows me, and I’m like, “Nobody knows me.” But that’s all right.

Lindsay: You’re Maggie. And you’ve been on the podcast before.

Maggie: Yeah here you would know me.

Lindsay: So if they’ve been listening for a while, they know you.

Maggie: So you can find me at maggiereyes.com. That’s my website, that’s the hub where you can find everything always. If you love podcasts, I host The Marriage Life Coach Podcast where I talk about things, all relationship-focused, but also holistic with like, how does it affect your life and all of those things. So you can find me there.

And I’m just so grateful for you having this space and for having these sort of nuanced in-depth conversations. So I want to thank you and every person who listens to the podcast, you make the podcast possible by listening to it. So thank you for being committed to creating a world where we care about the craft of coaching.

Lindsay: Thank you.

Hey coach, I hope you really enjoyed that episode. I will add the link in the show notes to The Complete Coach, the membership which is currently open for enrollment and will be closing very soon if you’re listening to this in real time. If it isn’t open when you’re listening, don’t worry. You can click on the link, you can get on the waitlist, and you will be the first to know when it opens again. All right. I will see you next week. Goodbye.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Mastering Coaching Skills. If you want to learn more about my work, come visit me at lindsaydotzlafcoaching.com. That’s Lindsay with an A, D-O-T-Z-L-A-F.com. See you next week.