Hey, this is Lindsay Dotzlaf and you are listening to Mastering Coaching Skills episode 248.

To really compete in the coaching industry, you have to be great at coaching. That’s why every week, I will be answering your questions, sharing my stories, and offering tips and advice so you can be the best at what you do. Let’s get to work.

Hey coach, I have a really incredible conversation for you to listen to today and I’m super excited about it. I am talking to my friend and my client and my colleague Justine Beauregard, and she is an incredible sales coach. And I really resonate with the way she thinks and talks about sales.

So I cannot wait for you to hear this conversation because, hopefully, it will break something open for you, especially if you are a coach who thinks that you’re not good at sales or that you don’t like sales. We dive a lot into that. We go deep and she just really brings so many great nuggets of wisdom. She drops some beliefs about sales that will be really useful for you, but she also delivers some really tangible things you can do today and apply immediately to some of your sales conversations and the way you’re interacting with potential clients.

A couple quick listener notes. The first thing is we have actually decided to break this interview into two pieces. So this is Part 1, and stay tuned next week for Part 2. It ended up being a much longer episode than I anticipated, and I know sometimes you don’t love to listen to the really long episodes so we are breaking it up into two pieces.

The second thing I want to mention is that if you want to come join me in Coach Unfiltered, if you’ve heard me talk about it, it is still open for enrollment, and we are just starting to dig in this week. A lot came up for me. I shared it all inside the Coach Unfiltered container and so far it’s going really, really well. So if you’re intrigued by that, it’s only $250, you should definitely pop in and join us for the next three months as I give you a complete behind-the-scenes look into all the changes I’m making in my business. OK. But now, let’s get to the interview. Here’s Justine.

Hello, hello. I am so thrilled to have you here today. Can you introduce yourself, tell everybody who you are and what you do?

Justine Beauregard: Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. I’m thrilled to be here with you.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Of course.

Justine Beauregard: Love our quality time. And my name is Justine Beauregard, and I have been teaching sales for the past almost 20 years, which is wild. And it really all started, I tell people I’m like, I’ll start my backstory when I was six years old, really paint the picture.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: I love that.

Justine Beauregard: Of putting together puppet shows in my backyard and selling them for five dollars a ticket to the neighborhood and friends and family and just always had this deep desire to forge my own path and be my own person and not be held down by society’s rules, you know, all of the things.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: We have such a similar story. I’ve probably never told you this and I’ve never talked about it for sure on the podcast. But I used to sell friendship bracelets in elementary school. They were the really cool kind where they would be like all the knots like across and I could make them really thick. And then I kept improving it and I kept charging more and I was like, this is, this is where it’s at right here.

Justine Beauregard: Yeah. It was amazing. There was a store that sold fabric for a dollar a yard right by my aunt’s house, and I would ride my bike there and I would bring this backpack and just fill it up with fabric. I would save all of my allowance and go down to the store and get fabric, and then I would make beach bags for my friends.

I would charge like ten dollars a bag and it cost me one dollar and they were so simple. It was just a plain bag, like canvas bag, with some straps and a pocket in the front. And I was just using the money to buy more fabric, to make more bags, to sell more things and save up and it was so much fun to just build these different businesses and test out how things worked.

And I mean, I didn’t know about profit margin or any of that when I was six years old, but I could tell, I’m not going to make as much when I do this versus that. So I’m going to do more of that. And then I just kept kind of growing into my own thing until eventually, you know, started a company and now I teach other people how to sell in ways that feel good to them and think about profit margin as it actually is defined.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: I love that. Did you ever work not for yourself or have you always been an entrepreneur?

Justine Beauregard: I have had a corporate job. I worked in a corporate, like startup though. I didn’t work for a huge company. I worked for small businesses and startups, and it sort of was the bridge because I needed a stable income. I had $100,000 in student loan debt, a little bit more than that. And I just didn’t know how to start a business at the time.

And my mom was a single mom, and growing up, she was always like, you could be anything you want to be. And I know you’re going to run your own company one day, but you need to pay off your debt. We need to be smart. She kind of taught me, you can live here, drive an old car. I drove an ’88 Mercury Sable around for years and saved every penny and paid off my student loans in five years.

And then it was just like, every startup job that I had, I was the only person doing all of the things. I was getting paid a fraction of what the guys of the company were making who were working in the sales organization. They would be – I was making like $36,000, they were making $100,000. I would go in at 6:00 a.m. and leave at 6:00 p.m., sometimes 11:00 p.m., working on proposals and deals and all this stuff that was like their work. And they were strolling in at 11:00, going out and playing golf in the middle of the day and being done by 3:00.

And I was like, wait a minute. What is happening here? And then I would ask for a raise or a promotion of some kind, and it would always be turned down. Like, well, you’re not ready or somebody else is a better fit or, you know, it was all these different reasons. And I was just like, I don’t think I fit in here.

And so after about seven years of doing that, and like every year or so, the company would get acquired or merged or something would happen that would kind of give me a good opportunity to figure out, do I want to stay here or go somewhere else. I got the thought in my head that at that point I was married, didn’t want to travel as much because my job was a lot of travel. And I was just like, I want to do something meaningful in the world.

So I decided to work for an educational nonprofit, which is kind of how I got my start in sales with fundraising. I’m like, I could totally do this job. And so I applied for a job where I was going up against people who’d been in this director level position for many, many years. And I went in with like no experience. And I just got lucky because the woman who was the senior director was also new and kind of wanted to shake things up and she saw something in me and was like, I know that I should probably hire the good on paper person that you are not, but I want to take a chance on you.

And their goal that year was $550,000 raised, and we did close to 700. And we had like a $10,000 day. I did these phoneathon events, but they were like super different and unique. And I just brought this different energy to the organization that wasn’t there before.

And still there was something going, I love the educational nonprofit. I love working with kids. I love being around families and all of that, especially because I was starting a family of my own at the time, thinking about doing that. And then I was like, but it’s still not quite what I want to be doing.

And then I got pregnant with my first child. I have two boys. And when I got pregnant, I was like, oh no. All of my dreams of being a VP and a C-level executive and like all these things in a company, they just kind of went away and I was like, no, I’m a mom. I want to be with my kid. I don’t want a stranger raising my kid.

I grew up with a single mom where I was in daycare and she had to work. And it was just like, I have a choice. I have a partner. I could do things differently, but I was the breadwinner. So I said to my husband, what do we do here? Do you stay home? Do I stay home? How do we handle this?

And he was like, you’ve always wanted to have a business. I think you should just try it. We don’t need that much. Let’s budget, let’s see what we can do. Let’s give it a year. And if it’s hard, and if we don’t want to keep doing it, we don’t have to keep doing it. And it’s been 11, and I am now unemployable.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: I say that about myself all the time. Also, I did not know our stories were so similar. Not exactly the same, but so many similarities, which makes sense. I get it. Good thing we weren’t friends in elementary school. We’d be taking over the world by now.

Justine Beauregard: I know. If I had TikTok and was friends with you since six years old, I don’t know, the whole world would be different.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Oh yeah. I can’t even imagine. I’m probably glad that we didn’t have social media when I was younger, but there are certain things about it that I’m like, I bet I would’ve been making more money.

Justine Beauregard: Do you ever watch videos where they go back into the past and they could rewrite things? Like I’m watching this series right now called Russian Doll and it’s all about different timelines. And I’m obsessed with Natasha Lyonne. I just think she’s so cool and vibey. And they’re going through different timelines and she ends up back in the ’80s and I’m like, there’s so many stocks I would buy. There’s so many things I would do. can’t time travel because I would ruin everything.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Yes. Oh, for sure. I’ve watched only a couple episodes. We just started it recently, but I also love her. And yeah, I think about that all the time. I’m like, oh my gosh, if I could go back and do that again or just keep doing this thing instead of just quitting and then moving on to something else? Things would be probably different, but I’m so glad that I can’t because I want to be right where I am. No regrets.

So you’ve been running your business for 11 years?

Justine Beauregard: Yes, about that. I LLC’d in 2015, so technically 10 on paper.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Have you always done what you do now? Or has that evolved as well?

Justine Beauregard: In so many ways. People would come to me for sales or presales related things, always, because I have a degree in marketing and that was kind of my background.

But when I started my business, I really just thought, well, I have a degree in marketing, which gives me credentials. And so I kind of have to lean into the marketing side. And I had held a marketing/sales role in every company I worked for. So I supported the sales organization. I was more sales enablement, but I did a lot of marketing stuff. So from everything from literally my very first job was sitting in a closet, licking envelopes for eight hours a day, every single day direct mail, like old school. And then moving up into like email campaigns and list building and all that sort of stuff.

And so all the stats that I had from companies I worked with were about open rates and click-through rates and, you know, social media and SEO. And I studied under somebody who was like getting into SEO at like the ground level and was teaching me a lot of things. And we got ranked on, you know, page one of Google for terms that were like wild. And then the company got acquired and it was a lot because of the things that we had done to build audience so quickly and how we did that. And so people were very curious, like, how did you do that.

And I started just offering audits, marketing audits, and then I would look at everyone’s marketing and be like, okay, you’re doing more tactical things than campaign oriented things. And then I would offer ad hoc implementation packages with the audits. So I would tell them everything that was wrong for money. I’d get paid a grand to do that. And then I would sell them like a two- or three-thousand-dollar package on the back end of it, like, okay, now let me fix all of this for you. And then people, after a certain amount of time.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: That was like your first kind of offer?

Justine Beauregard: Yeah, you know, it was like an agency. And then there was a certain point a few years in where people were going, I love what you’re doing and I want to understand how you think about it because I don’t think like you. And if we don’t work with you, we don’t know what to do and how you’ve built these campaigns.

And so then I was just like, I don’t know how to teach people how to think like me. That’s a different skill set. I’m not prepared for that. So then I just started offering pick your brain sessions and people were just paying for them one-off. It was very chaotic. It was like, oh, you want to sit with me for an hour? Here is my fee, you know? And then I would just kind of throw it out.

And then once I started doing them more and more, as you know, once you start really loving something, you just talk about it. And I was saying, you know, like in a pick your brain session with so-and-so last week, and then my client was like, wait, what is that?

And then my whole business shifted and it was just like, well, everybody wants pick your brain sessions and nobody really wants me to do the work for them anymore, which is better for me because now I don’t have to do all the work.

And so I just started offering those and really kind of getting into coaching, and then I created a group program, and then that evolved into one-on-one coaching as like an actual offer and then back into group now. So I have kind of a group program evolution that’s a little bit higher ticket for people that are a little further along that kind of thing. But yeah, it’s an evolution.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: What I love about what you just said is one of my favorite things when coaches are teaching a lot of marketing or sales. When you have a background that is in that and you have experience outside of the coaching world, selling things, being great at marketing, all of that, there’s just such a difference.

And not to throw anyone under the bus who is listening. This is not a problem if you specifically know how to do this with coaches, but I love talking to coaches who have been in that world outside of the coaching industry because there are just some differences and I think it just brings some creativity and some different types of strategizing to what you do.

Justine Beauregard: Yeah, for sure. A lot of things we consider to be inherent skills. And we almost blame ourselves. This is like a self-coaching thing that I have to go through a lot even now.

Different phases of growth, but it’s, we sort of think we should just know how to do that. eople come to you and they ask you for something. It’s like, I should know how to do that. And one example that I give is, it’s totally unrelated to business, but I laugh about it now, and in the moment, it was very chaotic and stressful. But when I had my first baby –

Lindsay Dotzlaf: I knew that’s what you were going to say. When you had a baby – I don’t know how to do anything.

Justine Beauregard: So I had a very traumatic birth story. We’re not going to get into it, but I was like high risk for multiple reasons. There was a whole mess of things that happened and essentially the first few days postpartum, I don’t really remember them because I was on heavy doses of things and it was hard.

And I was in the hospital for quite a long time and when I finally got home, I realized, oh my god, I don’t know how to bathe my baby. It was one of those moments of panic. Nobody taught my husband how to do it. Nobody taught me how to do it. What do we do? How do we do this? And I tried doing the things that you see in the movies, like, well, I’ll put him in the sink. That’ll be good. And then it’s like he’s wobbly and slippery. How do I keep his head up? And I don’t want him to dry drown.

And you read all these articles and I’m spending way too much time on WebMD and mommy blogs and I’m just like, oh no, I’m doing everything wrong. And I called the pediatrician and I was in tears. I’m sobbing. I’m like, I don’t know how to bathe my baby.

And she goes, Justine, relax. I’m going to give you the same advice I give to every other mom, which is pretty much every mom who gets home from the hospital and realizes that they don’t know how to bathe their baby. Call your mother. Your mother knows how to do it. And that’s what I did when I had kids. I called my mother. And I was like, oh, we’re going to be okay.

And I just called my mom and my mom is obviously amazing and lovely and she lived right down the street and she popped right over and she bathed my baby and she showed me how to do it. And I just thought there’s always somebody who knows more than I know who can teach me the skill or lead the way or guide me in some way. If I don’t have the skill, I just need the awareness that I don’t have it and the courage to ask for help, and I will get it pretty quickly.

But I think there is, with a lot of clients that I see, we share client personalities, very strong-willed experts who are great at what they do. And they confuse overthinking and wanting to get it right and the thought that they need to already have the skill with having the skill.

And so they just show up and they are frustrated and they muddle their way through it and it’s so much harder than it needs to be than just raising their hand even when they’re in The Coach Lab or any type of program, they just don’t even think to raise their hand because they feel like they should already know how to do it. And it’s just, no, you don’t know how to do that thing and also, you’re not broken. That’s normal. Like, no one does.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Yeah. It’s such a interesting trait we have as humans, right? To be like, I should know how to do this. If I had what, like a dollar for every time someone said that to me as a coach, I’d be making a lot of money because, yes, so many of my clients have said, I know. They’ll just start sentences with, I know I should know this, but…

I’m always like, okay, hold, stop right there. We don’t even have to go any further. You shouldn’t. So let’s just put that aside. Now, what’s the question? And yeah, I just find it fascinating that our brains really want us, like, we really want to believe we should know how to do all the things.

All right, let’s talk about your sales method and what you teach your clients. I think it’s genius. You’ve been my client. We’ve talked about this kind of behind the scenes a little bit. We’ve just had conversations around your business and what you do, and I think it’s genius, and I’ve had you come into The Coach Lab and teach a little bit, which has been fun. What do you think is different, maybe about the way, let’s start with the way you think about sales than maybe others?

Justine Beauregard: There’s nothing really new about what I do. Sales has existed for many, many years, centuries, all the people, it really just comes down to like some basic fundamental things. And so the uniqueness I feel is it really comes down to the way that I simplify complex topics. Like the way people think about funnels. Almost every time I ask someone, what does your sales funnel look like? And they’re like, well, it’s 17 steps. Let me outline them for you at length, right? And I’m just like, or it could be three.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Or, I don’t have a funnel. And you’re like, no, you have some kind of funnel.

Justine Beauregard: Yeah, I have no funnel. Oh, that’s interesting. Do you have a lead magnet? Yeah, I have a lead magnet. Do you send people emails after? Yeah, I send people email after. Okay, do you have a call link or a booking link or some way to, for people to buy from me? Yeah, I have that.

Well, then you have a funnel, my friend. How have people been buying from you? That’s what it looks like. But I think it’s just a lot of people use really, it’s sort of the classic bullying style of marketing and selling where people just try to use words and concepts that are over the average person’s capacity of thinking.

So that they feel dumb. Oh, I need this person to show me the way. I don’t understand the whole webinar thing because they think that there needs to be a five level tiered funnel with a text stack that’s a mile long and 16 software integrations, all these complicated things. Or you could just go live on Zoom and let people know and then follow up. People just look at me like a deer in headlights going, how did I not see how simple that could be?

Lindsay Dotzlaf: But sometimes I do think it’s understandable because they have, they hear a lot of people yelling at them, yelling, I’m going to say in quotes, about the right way to do it and about this is the way and if you don’t do it this way, then it’s not right. So I can see for some of them how they get in their head about like, no, I don’t know how to do that.

Justine Beauregard: Well, here’s the thing, with a lack of strategy and decisions on what you want to do, you’re very vulnerable and susceptible to that type of messaging, making you feel not enough. Making you feel like, ah, I don’t have it all figured out. And I must be missing something because this person seems to be making millions with this beautiful method that’s all tied together and it has all these great.

And I’m like, listen, anything can work, but it’s sort of like that quote, the grass is always greener where you water it. So if you’re watering all the grass tiny bits, it’s all going to die. But if you’re like focused on one area of your lawn and you’re watering it well and keeping it nourished, then it’s really thriving.

And so you can’t take your tiny watering can and try to get your whole lawn to look luscious and beautiful all year round. You have to decide where you’re going to dedicate your time and energy. And I think it’s very similar to working out. And I talk about health and sales being very closely linked in that way.

If someone told you to lose ten pounds, you have to get up at 5:00 a.m. and run every day and eat oatmeal for breakfast. And you hate grains, wake up early and you don’t like to run or you’re not built for that, you’re going to do it for a certain period of time because you trust the expert and they’re going to tell you what to do.

And you’re going to be miserable and every day when you wake up, you’re going to get more and more resentful until the point where you finally give it up instead of like, I love heavy bag boxing. And I will wake up and go to a class at a time that’s inconvenient for me when I least want to do it because I love it so much that it’s like a non-negotiable thing for me and it’s a way to get fitness in.

And it’s like you have to find not just what works, but what works for you, what is tailored to your energy and allows you to show up at your best. And we all have like that magic natural combination of skill and talent and things that bring us joy and things that people come to us for and systems that make sense to us. It’s like going into someone else’s kitchen and they’re like, why are your oven mitts next to the silverware? And they’re like, it makes perfect sense. But you’re like, I put them next to my oven because to me, that makes perfect sense.

You will never see eye to eye. That’s just someone else’s way of doing it. And so basically you’re planting yourself in someone else’s kitchen by following their blueprint and you’re eventually going to learn where all the stuff is, but it’s not naturally where you would put it. So there’s still that little bit of, ugh, why do I keep going to the drawer on the left when I should be going to the drawer on the right? And it’s like, cuz you’re working against your natural patterns.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Yeah, that is exactly what it feels like when you’re trying to do something in your business that you just know this doesn’t really feel very aligned, but I’m going to do it because that’s what they said to do. And yeah, everything feels off and wobbly. You’re burning things, messing things up.

Justine Beauregard: So the way that I teach sales is I give you a framework. I tell you like, not where to put the silverware, but the fact that the silverware needs a place.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Mhm. And here’s how where you decide where it goes.

Justine Beauregard: Yeah. These drawers are empty. You put it wherever you want. But you got to put it in a drawer. You can’t just like leave it chaotically on the counter, right? Because we don’t live in a mess. We live in an organized chaos over here.

So it’s like, you get to be yourself. You get to show up to calls, you get to do sales however you want, but it has to tick certain boxes. And I think that part is the really special part. That’s what’s really unique to me is I have these frameworks that I teach under where the frameworks are the drawers. They’re open, they’re wide open. They’re ready for you to put whatever you want inside of them.

And there’s always enough space for the things that you brought into the kitchen to fit. Like everything has a place, but you have to figure out if the glasses go next to the sink or next to the stove. You get to figure out if the silverware goes where the oven mitts go and vice versa. You get to make it your own.

And I think it gives people the structure, gives people the capacity to make faster decisions on how to do what they need to do, but it gives them enough freedom of play to make it enjoyable so that when they walk into the kitchen, they’re like, I can cook whatever the hell I want. I know where all the things are. I’m not going to burn anything. I have all the ingredients that I need. I just need to remember where I put them and to make it my own so that when I walk in, I feel like really cozy. I feel like I am comfortable and at ease and I know where I need to be and when.

And that’s the part that a lot of people miss because they’re like, wait, where are the forks? Where are the whatever? Because you’re trying to remember a script or you’re going into a kitchen and you’re like, oh no, I don’t know how to use this oven because you’re following someone else’s blueprint versus, this is your kitchen. You get to decide what kind of oven you want. You get to decide where the silverware belongs.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Yes. Oh my goodness. This is why I knew you had to be on here. We had to talk about this because I really love the way you talk about it. And of course, it really aligns with kind of how I think about things, how I teach things. So that’s fun.

Side note, before I ask the next question, I think this has me thinking I need to move my oven mitts. They’re like really not in a place that make a ton of sense. So, we’ll talk about that later. But here’s my next question. I’m guessing you get this because I hear this all the time. What do you say to people who are like, oh, I just really don’t like sales?

Justine Beauregard: I hear that all the time.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Mhm. Me too. That’s why I’m like, we have to talk about this because I’m on a personal journey. This year, I just decided I love sales. I love them. They’re my favorite. I am here for it. I just decided. Here we are. Now, I don’t think my dislike of sales was as extreme as some people say that theirs is. I was just like, oh, I like other things more in my business. And now I’m like, maybe sales are my favorite. We’ll see. I love them.

So what do you say when people say that to you? I don’t like sales or like I’m just not good at sales or something along those lines.

Justine Beauregard: Well, those are very different responses. I don’t like sales versus I don’t feel like I’m good at sales. I would not respond to those the same way. But I..

Lindsay Dotzlaf: You can answer both or one or the other, whichever you prefer.

Justine Beauregard: I think that what’s really interesting, when someone says, I don’t like sales, my old reaction, the reaction inside of my body is immediately, oh, you just haven’t found your way yet. Sales are not something to like or dislike. It’s sort of a neutral skill. And so there’s something about the way that you have seen sales happen, been sold to, sold to someone else, something happened along the way that sort of changed it from neutral to dislike. Or lower on the scale of likeability.

And so that is the way that I think, and it’s not like, oh, my goal is for everyone to love sales. I love that you’re starting to love it because I think it makes it easier when you enjoy it, right? But it’s not a prerequisite to be successful. I’m sure you didn’t love sales while you were making millions. You just make millions more when you do.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: And just have more fun doing it. That’s really what I’m seeing. It’s like, oh, when I go into it with that thought, it’s just like way more fun to do the things that I would be doing anyway.

Justine Beauregard: So for me, thinking those thoughts, I’m like, mmm, interesting. So when someone says like, I hate sales, usually my response is not a statement, it’s a question. It’s like, why? Why not? Like, genuinely curious, why not? Why don’t you like them?

Getting to the root of that reason that flipped them, because usually it’s a pretty visceral reaction. Because everyone who sells to me shoves it down my throat. Or like every time I get on a phone call, I feel pushy. Like they have this very memorable moment or a series of circumstances that have led them to this feeling.

And it’s always like, well, let’s unpack that specific circumstance and then we can get to the root of what’s behind it. How you want it to feel. And then if someone says, I’m just not good at it.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: And they say it like they were just born that way. Like this is just facts of the universe. This is just how it is.

Justine Beauregard: I’m not good at it. And it’s, again, probably kind of controversial in this way, but my immediate thought isn’t necessarily what I would say to their face, but my immediate thought is like, you’re probably not good at it. And that’s okay.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Yeah.

Justine Beauregard: Anytime you think something, it’s true for you. And so when you’re thinking like, man, I think my emails might be a little bit long, they are. And I think I might not be as good at sales as I think, you’re probably not. And I think I’m not showing up enough consistently, then you’re not.

And also, what are you going to do about it? I think we need to shift from statement-based thoughts to more curiosity in frame. Okay, so you’re not. So what? You’re just going to accept that as your truth and then just go through life not being good at it forever and ever? Like, you notice that there’s something that is a sticking point for you or something that’s hindering you or holding you back from what you want.

So you have to make a decision now. You have to just choose what you’re going to do with that information. Why do you feel like you’re not good at it? They might say, well, because it feels pushy. And we’d go down that rabbit hole and figure out what’s an approach that might not feel pushy and that’s something to try later today or on your next sales call or whatever.

Or they might say, you know, because everyone who comes to me, like nobody ends up buying or I get ghosted all the time. And it’s like, well then what’s happening? Is there not enough excitement being built? Are you attracting unqualified buyers? Like there’s different reasons.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Forget to send the reminder email? So many things that could be happening.

Justine Beauregard: Or you didn’t draw a line in the sand for when they need to follow up. You just said, okay, we’ll just let me know when you’re ready. And then I tell people it’s like you’re on a tennis court and you’re hitting the ball back and forth and everything’s going great. And then the ball kind of hits the net and drops. And it’s just kind of rolling near the net for a little bit and like no one’s picking it up because everyone’s like, well, it’s closer to you. No, it’s closer to you.

And the ball keeps rolling and you’re just kind of both looking at it like, who’s going to pick up this damn ball? Like this thing is just rolling around. Are we playing the game or are we not playing the game? Like, what’s happening? And then someone will go to pick it up and they’ll imagine, they’ll see a movement that looks like the other person’s going for it and then there’s more awkward tension.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: This is amazing.

Justine Beauregard: Walk up to the net with confidence, pick up the damn ball and like throw it back or hit it back. Like, until someone says, oh, I guess the ball went into the middle. That’s a sign. I’m done. I’m out of the game.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: I’m good for now. Yeah.

Justine Beauregard: You’re still playing the game. You’re just wasting time, both of you. And if you’re the one who had said, like at the beginning of the game, hey, if the ball hits the net and drops, like I’ll be the one to pick it up, then there’s no awkwardness. You just go pick it up because you took responsibility.

And you, that’s an unwritten agreement of sales. The person who wants to make the sale, the seller, that person is responsible for the ball. So you can’t just say, let me know when you’re ready. You say, okay, I will call you on Tuesday if I don’t hear back. I will circle back with you on Friday if I don’t hear from you. And it’s like, draw a line. That doesn’t mean if you don’t decide by Friday, you’re out. That just means I’m going to show up with integrity because I said I was going to be there and then we get to decide what to do on Friday. We can extend it another week if you want.

There’s no pushiness involved, but it’s like, I say to people a lot, it’s like a friend. If a friend’s in crisis and, I mean, that’s dramatic, but if someone’s calling you, in my case, like they’re missing opportunities to make money every day and support people, they’re in crisis a little bit. And so when they tell me, I’m in crisis, this isn’t working, I’m like, every day they’re not working with me, they’re burning cash, they are losing opportunities, people are missing out on the best quality experience with them. Like, this is a nightmare. I don’t want that to go on.

And so when I think, if this was my friend and she was in crisis, I would be calling her all the time. Like, I would be shameless in how I reach back out to her. Like, are you okay? Do you need anything? What’s happening? Like, how do I help you? How do I move this along? But for some reason, because in sales, there’s like a level of professional boundaries, people feel like they can’t advocate for the other person in a way that feels good to them, but that’s still an option. And I think when people realize that, they approach it really differently.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Mmm, yeah. And I think the kind of like thought error that a lot of people have, I’m curious if you agree with this, is that doing that is pushy, which it can be depending on how you do it. I’ve seen that. We’ve both seen that done in a pushy way. In a way that you’re like, no, that’s not, maybe it.

And everyone has probably experienced that in some way that and it does feel kind of icky, so they probably have that in their mind. But that’s not what you’re, I know that’s not what you’re talking about, that form of sales, but more just like, no, I’m in charge here. Like I’ve got you. Let me just pick up the ball and like, you know, hit it back to you or whatever. I actually think it creates a lot of safety because it like gets rid of all the ambiguity. I think it’s like the exact opposite of what people think it is.

Justine Beauregard: Well, I also think it’s more fun for the buyer. Using the same example, you know, you’re playing tennis with someone and they’re like, do you want to come play tennis with me? They invite you. And now you’re on the court and the ball keeps hitting the net and dropping to the ground. And you’re like, so what, are you going to pick that up?

And it’s like, you asked me to play tennis with you. Like, do some work here. You know, like, if I’m the one that’s playing tennis and I was invited, I’m like, how much more fun is it going to be for me if I just get to like stand and wait for you to toss me the ball and I get to just hit it when I’m ready, how I want to?

It’s – you’re creating ease and a flow of the conversation. You’re making it a lot more laid back and enjoyable for the person on the other side because they’re also, like whatever you’re feeling, they’re feeling it times 10. If you feel overwhelmed about when you should be reaching out or what you need to be saying, they’re probably also feeling like, when are they going to reach out? Or what am I supposed to say? Or what are they going to say?

And so when you’re just like, I’m going to make this so easy on you. All you need to do is bring your racket and a good attitude and we’re going to have a great day. It’s like, thank you. You know, like, I don’t want to have to work for it. That’s your job.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Yes. I also think that when – have you noticed this with your clients? When someone does feel very awkward about sales or they’ve convinced themselves they don’t like sales and that they’re really bad at it and then they approach conversations with those thoughts.

Those are always to me, the conversations that when I sometimes get to be privy to them or like overhear them or, or hear a recording. I used to like listen to people’s coaching sessions or like consult calls and with their permission, obviously. And I’m like, oh no. That’s what actually makes everything feel very weird. When you are feeling weird about it now, it does feel a little like weird and scammy because your energy is so kind of all over the place.

Instead of holding the space for like, of course I’m going to pick up this tennis ball and throw it back to you. Like that’s part of my job as like the person who’s running the game. And when you’re not doing that then it does become very like, what am I supposed to do? What is this person waiting for me to do?

Justine Beauregard: It adds a lot of tension and it adds a lot of friction to the sales process as well. Because when you’re not pre-planned and you do just show up in the moment, the rules of the game feel so unclear that even though you could just be like, the ball is probably going to hit the net and when it does, I’ll just grab it and we’ll just follow you back and forth. Sound good? Yeah. Okay, cool.

But then the ball drops down and you’re like, do you want to get? You know what? Nevermind, I’ll get. And it’s like kind of that awkward and then it adds the extra step and it feels so much harder and more arduous for both parties to just be there. And so when there’s all that awkwardness. And it’s funny because I still make mistakes when I sell, you know, I still kind of do certain things that I like or don’t like.

And recently I was having a conversation with someone and I was triggered because one of the questions she asked me, I was like, it was a yes and moment and not a way that worked in my favor. So she asked, does your program, do you have any programs that cover this specific thing? If she goes to my website, there’s no messaging about that and it is actually a core part of what I teach.

So you know what I’m going to do? I’m going to explain to her how my program covers that thing so that if she goes to my website she can understand where I’m coming from. And I got so much mind drama going on in the background and like, how do I say this? And I sent her two sentences but it wasn’t this long winded message or anything, but I kind of, it was like, she’s probably not even going to look for that. She might not even go to my website.

Like in hindsight I was just beating myself up a little bit. I’m like, well first of all I need to just respond yes and then go and make that quick change to my site so that it’s clear and not think anything of it.

But I didn’t do that. In the moment, I was like, I need to say something about this.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: And be sure she knows so that it doesn’t look like I’m lying.

Justine Beauregard: Yeah, make sure she knows. And then her response was just like, thanks for the clarification. And then nothing happened. And I’m like, this isn’t usually how conversations go.

And so then I started getting more in my head about it and I’m like, oh God, anything I say now is just going to sound graspy if I try to clarify with questions or whatever. And I’m like, I just have to say, “My pleasure,” and just move on and move on to a different thing and like shift the energy around. And then a couple days later she booked a call with me and I was like, you see, all that happened was that there was some awkwardness on my side. She probably didn’t even feel it.

I over-explained a little bit and if I had said, absolutely, here’s my program that does exactly what you’re asking for, she probably would have bought instead of booking a call and my sales cycle would’ve been a little bit shorter. But I say this because of two things. Number one, we’re all human. People think that you are the best coach and never make a mistake, and I’m the best salesperson and never make a mistake, and you are the best coach, and I am the best salesperson. Because we make mistakes.

And we’re aware of it. And we’re okay to get uncomfortable and fail and do all the things messy because we show up in a way that’s true to who we are. And that’s why I was so attracted to you and your programs, because we have that similar, like, it’s okay. We’re human energy. And the second reason I share that is because it’s never a no until it’s a no. Right. And so you could go through that same situation and be like, oh, yeah, that sale’s gone.

You screwed it up. You got too in your head, whatever happened. But it’s like, it’s not gone. It’s just different. It’s not ideal. It’s not what I would want to happen. In hindsight, I would have done it differently. Sure. And I patiently waited, and it still came to the end result of where it needed to be.

Because the truth is, I am the best person to help her. I know exactly how to help her. And I think taking that little extra step, that detour, just added a little bit of tension on my side and friction on hers, but it didn’t cancel everything out and ruin the whole experience for anybody. So, like, even when you make a mistake. Okay, and same thing as before. Okay. You’re bad at sales, and what are you gonna do about it? You have to choose.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: The other direction that could have gone is that you doubled down, got more awkward, kept sending more messages until she’s like, yeah, now it’s a. I think it’s a no.

Justine Beauregard: Yeah. No, I thought it was a no now for sure it is.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Yep. That’s just such a good example of, like, of course I have situations like that where I’m like, what? Why do I have to be so awkward? Why did I say that? What is happening? But it’s usually best to just be like, and I’m done for now. I don’t need to keep explaining to them. They might not even notice that I was just being awkward right now. Like, maybe I’m just noticing it. So I love that you give that example, because I’m sure listeners experience that often.

Justine Beauregard: Well, and I will say I also had a backup plan. Should she have not booked a call because I’m like, there’s no way that I’m not going to offer help to this woman. Now is not the time. Like, this is not the environment to play in. I need to give this a little bit of breathing room.

But I had proactively gone into my calendar for a week from that day and set an appointment reminder for myself to circle back and say, hey, did you end up figuring out that thing that you were looking for help with just to check in and see where she was at? And again, that could reset the whole timeline. If she said, I was looking at your program, I had questions, then I might offer a call or I might answer the question directly right then and there. There was no no. So it wasn’t over. And there were multiple ways that could have gone.

Thankfully, she proactively booked the call and I didn’t have to do the circle back, but I have no shame in doing that. And I would have gone right back to her in a week because it’s not coming from a place of I need and want to sell you what I have to offer. It was, I’m noticing there’s a gap. And I went on your website for two minutes and could identify 16 things that I could help you fix. Like, there’s no way I’m letting you get away without fixing them.

With or without paying me. Like, we’re going to fix it. And I know exactly how to help you. So when you have those feelings and when you have that, you know, assurance and what you’re able to bring to the table, you still might screw it up and also figure it out. Like, there is a path forward that’s going to feel okay to you. And it’s like you would have felt your best if you had just said a confident yes and moved on. But you’re gonna feel like second best by taking route B. And you’ll still get there.

Lindsay Dotzlaf: Yeah. Just don’t go down route C and just keep explaining and explaining and explaining.

Justine Beauregard: It’s like the person who had a really good first date and they’re just like, you’re so pretty. You’re so nice. You’re so funny. Oh my gosh. It was the best meal. Did you love the meal? Oh my gosh. Did you really like the meal? Do you wanna go for another meal? When do you wanna go? Do you wanna go Wednesday?

It’s like, I was also excited. I also had a great time, but like, the energy is a little creep fest now and I don’t, I don’t really want to take part in that. And it’s probably like, not on that person. You’re probably a really good person. But also, you know, it’s the vibes. You gotta lean in and, and know when, when to be done. For now.

Thank you so much for listening in today, and I hope you loved Part 1 of this conversation with Justine. We will be continuing this conversation next week in Part 2. I’m sorry to break it up, but the episode just ended up being quite long and I thought you might enjoy a little bit of a shorter episode. So I promise you we will be back next week with Part 2. And if you’re listening in the future, you can just go right now. If you’re like no, I want a longer episode. Just go right now and listen to the next one. It is there waiting for you. Alright?

Thanks again for listening and I’ll be back next week. Goodbye.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Mastering Coaching Skills. If you want to learn more about my work, come visit me at lindsaydotzlafcoaching.com. That’s Lindsay with an A, D-O-T-Z-L-A-F.com. see you next week.