Hi, this is Lindsay Dotzlaf and you are listening to Mastering Coaching Skills, episode 85.

To really compete in the coaching industry, you have to be great at coaching. That’s why every week, I will be answering your questions, sharing my stories, and offering tips and advice so you can be the best at what you do. Let’s get to work.

Hey coach, so last week I recorded a podcast with some of my clients, we talked about the week in California, we called it expansion week. And I promised you that I would be bringing you an episode about why I planned that and what I learned from it, what my takeaways were, that will be here next week.

But for now I wanted to let you know I recently recorded a podcast with my business coach, Stacey Boehman. I actually recorded two of them, two weeks back to back. One of them was about my recent launch of The Coach Lab an about the program, which you already know about that because I’ve already talked about it on here.

But the second one was really diving into what The Coach Lab is, what Coaching Masters is, why it’s important to really have solid coaching foundational skills and what coaching mastery is.

And I’ve received so much feedback from that podcast and I wanted to offer it here for you so that it wasn’t just over there living on her podcast, which is called Making Money as a Life Coach. I really wanted it to be here so that if you’re listening now or you’re listening in the future you don’t miss it because it is full of so much goodness.

So, here it is. I hope you enjoy.

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Hey coaches, welcome to episode 177. Today we are back with my good friend, master coach instructor, Lindsay Dotzlaf and isn’t that so exciting, master coach instructor for The Life Coach School?

Lindsay: But let’s be fair, I’m not an instructor for The Life Coach School.

Stacey: That’s true.

Lindsay: Just a master coach.

Stacey: You should be. They should hire you immediately.

Lindsay: I’m expensive.

Stacey: No, no, they shouldn’t, you coach for me.

Lindsay: I’m expensive.

Stacey: It’s a bad idea, never mind.

Lindsay: They can’t.

Stacey: And you know what it is? I’m used to saying master coach instructor when I talk about myself. But you are a master coach instructor with The Life Coach School as in certified through Life Coach School. You are a master coach teacher, that’s what I really meant. But no, they can’t have you. I need you in my programs.

Lindsay: I know what you meant. I just wanted to correct it just in case anyone heard that, and they thought, what, she teaches for The Life Coach School? I must get over there.

Stacey: Be like no, she teaches for Stacey Boehman, that’s it. Okay, so today we’re going to talk about a lot of things that I think people are going to be really intrigued and interested in. And it’s going to answer a lot of things for a lot of new coaches and coaches making lots of money and all the coaches. So, I want to talk about the idea of what I see a lot, what you see a lot that I think has contributed to your work which is coaches who are selling their coaching, they’re working with clients, but they are lacking in their confidence in their coaching skills.

And I feel very passionately about our clients getting 100% results and all of us being – it’s not just about selling coaching, it’s about being a really good coach. So, these are things I want to talk about today because you address them in your work.

But I think we should start with the question that you get a lot about your work that we talked about on the last episode which is, wait, so do you just teach the model? Do you teach people how to use the model? You’re certified with The Life Coach School. So, is your work just helping us use the model better? So, let’s start there and then we’ll move on.

Lindsay: Okay. So, I see it like this, this could be – how long do we have? I could talk about this for two hours. But I think one thing that is a little different about me that a lot of people may not realize, especially if they’re just being introduced to me or to my work now. Is that I was actually starting my coaching master’s mastermind at the exact same time, actually a little bit before I think I was even certified through Life Coach School. So, this is work that I have been doing before I had that specific certification.

And I think where my kind of drive to teach this work came from is just my kind of years of coaching and just knowing for myself that I knew that for me to keep going and for me to work with all of the clients and charge money for my coaching services I had to know I was doing a good job. That just has always been important to me. And it was something that would, I felt, constantly getting in my way, just my own thoughts about my coaching and how do I know? And what’s the measurement? How do I ask the clients? Just all of that.

And so, I really just kind of took all my years of experience coaching all of the clients. But then also that, okay, well, what did I create for myself that was like this is how I know if my clients are getting results which, of course the answer is pretty simple. I just asked them and just like, “What results are you getting? How is it going?” We evaluate, all of that. But I think when you’re a newer coach that’s a scary thing to think about is, we actually have to address it, if they’re getting results or if they’re not.

And so that’s something that we talk about a lot in the Coach Lab. But I think what I have created has just come from just years of my experience in coaching mixed with seeing coaches from all over the industry, all different certifications, or trainings, or backgrounds struggling with all the same things.

Stacey: Which are?

Lindsay: Which are their confidence. So maybe they have learned very specific skills. Maybe they have learned a lot of very specific skills and they still just don’t have the – they’re just afraid to go do it and to really own that they do know what they’re doing. They’re always looking for, what’s just the one more thing I can add before I just coach my clients?

And sometimes I find that, it’s interesting, I tend to attract either coaches who maybe don’t have tons of experience, don’t have a certification, don’t have training. And they’re kind of doing it themselves, which is what I did in the very beginning of my business. Or coaches who have so many certifications.

Stacey: It’s almost like too many.

Lindsay: And then they’re so confused because they have a 100 tools and it’s like how do I know what I’m supposed to use today, which one?

Stacey: I was just going to say, it’s almost like two ends of the spectrum of not enough tools and too many tools.

Lindsay: Yes. And so, I’m here to say, “Okay, here are just the basic tools that every coach needs. Let’s really simplify what you’re trying to do.” Because a lot of them I find are trying to take everything they’ve learned somewhere else and teach it to their clients instead of using it to coach their clients. I have so many clients who are like, “Well, and then I teach my client this and I teach my client this. And I teach them how to self-coach and I teach them how to.” And I’m like, “Wait, what, why? Your clients aren’t coaches. You don’t need to do that.”

If you were a doctor you wouldn’t teach them. If you’re a physician you wouldn’t teach your patients how to treat themselves. You would just treat them. It’s a very strange thing that we do as coaches when we think we have to teach our clients every tool that we have ever learned.

Stacey: Yes. And I will say, I think how you know if you’re doing this, if you’re unaware and you’re like, “Wait, am I doing that or not”, I think, I’m curious what you think about this. But I think, to me, teaching them is very similar to talking at them or telling them. And I think how that shows up is they don’t get results. They don’t have shifts and breakthroughs.

Lindsay: No, they might know how to coach. So, I self-coached myself today but that’s very different than I went out into the world and created whatever results that I hired you for.

Stacey: Yeah. I think so. I don’t even know though. Can they, if you’re teaching them?

Lindsay: No, not really, they’re using it more like, I’m just going to cut you off because I know the answer.

Stacey: Yeah, because they self-coach, yeah.

Lindsay: And this isn’t even a Life Coach School thing, almost all the certifications that I know of that I have lots of students come to me from have something similar. Some kind of awareness tool that’s very similar to the model that goes by just a bunch of different names and has slight variations. But what they’re doing is when you teach that then your clients are using it like a math equation and it takes all the humanity out of it, all of the humanness, all of the actual feelings and what’s happening in real time.

And it becomes more of did I get it right? Here’s my math problem, did I do it right?

Stacey: And it makes coaching about almost like achievement versus breakthrough, achievement in the tools, or the conversation, or the theory but not actually application in the life.

Lindsay: Yeah. And there are places for that, it’s not like you shouldn’t ever be doing it. I actually think about this all the time because I remember, I have coached with you for a very long time. You were my one-on-one coach and I remember at some point just saying, “Okay, but teach me this thing.” I was always so curious about it. But we had been coaching for so long at that point, I don’t know, a year maybe. It wasn’t the first call I was like, “Show me how to coach myself.”

Stacey: Yeah. So good. I think this is so important for just knowing that balance. Because I get a lot of people who ask. This is a question we get a lot for 2K is, “Do you teach us what to do once we get the clients?” And we really don’t. I don’t want to say we don’t. We do because selling is coaching, and coaching is selling. So, for example, I teach bridging the gap in my consultation process. And that piece that you do on a consult, if you want to deliver what you’ve sold you should probably take that into the coaching relationship and work on it.

Do the thing, you discussed it on the consult call and then you do it in the coaching relationship. So, if you’re in 2K and you’re like, “What do I do with the clients?” Start there, start with bridging the gap and where they are, where they want to be, your process to walk them there. And you do that in the coaching relationship.

Lindsay: But we have the exact opposite conversation in the Coach Lab where I’m like, “No, I don’t teach consults at all but occasionally it comes up.” And I’m like, “No, what we’re learning here, you just tell them about that. You just tell them that’s what you’re going to do.”

Stacey: No, but let’s have the conversation, let’s talk about it because maybe their brain doesn’t work in that way. So, if you have a different way let’s talk about it. But all I’m saying is, we get a lot of people who have questions about what do I do in the coaching relationship and where I was going with that. But I do think we should go back to what you said. Is if you look at just, let’s use the model for example, our thoughts create our result. If you’re having the thought, what do I do with the client and the coaching relationship.

I want you to think about what your result as the coach will be and then what your client’s result as the client will be when that’s your predominant thought is I don’t know what to do with them. So, I think, I’m on the outside looking in. But I do think that from the outside looking in what I see the work that you do is, that’s so beneficial to people is you remove that thought for them completely.

Lindsay: Yeah, totally. And then when their question is, “But now, but what do I do in a consult?” I’m like, “No, I just taught you all the things that you do as a coach. All you have to do is get really good at explaining that and selling it.” I don’t coach on that at all. All the time I’m like, “Well, if you’re not in 2K, you’re just going to have go find that because that’s specifically what she does.”

But even if you have zero knowledge of how to do a consult, if you know how to talk about what coaching is and how you create results for your clients, or help them create their results, it should be a no brainer. You don’t have to know step one through ten, you don’t have to have that mastered. But if you know what coaching is and how you work with your clients you should be able to tell someone that in just the normal human conversation.

Stacey: I actually agree with you 100%. I think that I have a process because I think some people struggle with that or they don’t know how to do that. They haven’t learned that.

Lindsay: Yeah, totally, yeah.

Stacey: So, it’s so much easier for them to focus their brain. And because I did that in sales, we had a seven step process when I was pitching, and my brain works that way. It works in processes. However, let me say a lot of – you’ve been through 2K, a lot of the content is also teaching people just how to talk about coaching because the better you get at that. So, what I wrote that I think is so powerful is I also think the thought that you help people live is I know how to talk about coaching.

Lindsay: Yeah, that’s step one.

Stacey: I know how to talk about coaching. I know what coaching is. I am a good coach. You really take them into that confidence of I know exactly what I’m doing with my clients. So, tell me how you do that. If they were to join Coach Lab, what are the types of things that they learn that’s not the same as learning how to coach, what’s the difference, learning how to coach versus what you do?

Lindsay: So, this is actually something I think about all the time because I get a lot of emails that are like, “So do you teach me how to coach?” And here’s kind of how I think about it right now. If you have no idea what coaching is and you have never heard of coaching and you’re just like, “I’m looking for someone to take me from zero to okay, now I know how to coach”, this is not the place for you. But if you’ve been coaching, you understand this concept of coaching, you’re dabbling maybe. What I do is say, “Okay, here are just the foundational skills that every coach needs.”

So, whether they’re coming from a certification or they’re coming from just having been coaching people for free, I get that. Maybe they have a different, like they have a profession and they’re adding coaching to it. I have a lot of clients that are like that. They’re in finance and they’re becoming a bookkeeper or something, or a CFO. And they’re taking their finance skills and adding coaching into it. I have a lot of clients like that. But what I do is say, “Just here are the most simple, the very basics of what you need.” And we start there.

So, no matter where they’re coming, if they have learned all of these skills because they have certifications, or trainings, or whatever. I say, “Okay, but for now let’s just table that and look at what are just like if you just have these five things that you’re going into your clients with, this is all you need. Let’s just start there. And then you can add back in whatever you want.” It’s really just stripping it down to the foundations.

Stacey: Okay, so you know what my next question is, right?

Lindsay: What?

Stacey: What are the five foundational skills, can you tell us?

Lindsay: Yeah. What if I was like, oh no, what?

Stacey: The secret.

Lindsay: It’s a secret. So, the skills are awareness, goal setting or future, some tool for awareness, a tool for future goal setting, decision making, asking amazing questions which is I think the foundation of great coaching just to begin with. And if I could just pick one skill, it’s that one. And then strategy. And when I talk about strategy that might be things that they’re bringing in. I don’t teach them strategy, but they might have some that they’re using.

So, the example I was using of the finance person who’s now adding in coaching skills. They have their own strategies that they’re bringing that they use with their clients. And now they’re adding all the rest of that to it.

Stacey: It’s so good. I’m like, oh my God, there’s so many questions I get asked now based on that. What do you think that – because we’ve talked about this a lot, what is the biggest struggle for coaches when it comes to gaining awareness for themselves and helping their clients find it? Is that a loaded question?

Lindsay: Oh man, I just feel like I could answer it. I just think I could answer it in so many different ways. But probably the biggest struggle is staying there without moving forward. I talk about awareness, and I didn’t make this up. I have heard other people use similar things. But it’s like if you’re looking at a map and the goal is where you’re going. But awareness is but where am I starting? So, if someone just hands you a map and it just has a star on it with this is where you’re going. But you have no idea where you are on the map.

How much longer is it going to take you to get there because you have to figure out, okay, you have to orient the map, figure out where you are. That’s a whole situation versus I’m starting right here. Here’s the start here, or you are here, star. Here is where I’m going, now it’s a lot easier to map the journey than having to spend however long figuring out where you even are on the map.

Stacey: And I think the clearer you are about that mark, literally the way I think about it is there could be a star on a very big map, and it’s a very – maybe you see one road or something, I don’t know. You know what I mean? It’s more of a zoomed out versus you have…

Lindsay: Yeah. No, these two things aren’t even connected. Wait a minute. How do I get from here to here, yeah.

Stacey: Yes. Versus if you have latitude and longitude coordinates, that makes everything easier. And so, I wanted to say because I was thinking about my clients and where they struggle with awareness. And I think that one of the things I see that they may not attribute to struggling with awareness is when they come, no matter what the problem is, thoughts or strategy, whatever it is and they say, “I have no idea where to start.” And they need you to tell them the most basic place to start. That shows me you struggle with seeing your own mind.

And I think that this happens with coaches in their own work, in their own business, it happens in their own transformations.

Lindsay: And their clients are like, “Where do I start?” And they’re like, “What?”

Stacey: So, overwhelmed by that question from their clients.

Lindsay: What do you mean? I don’t know. Yeah.

Stacey: Yes. And I do think if you’re looking for your coach to tell you where to start, as a coach you’re looking for your coach to tell you where to start. What I can see to be true in the client relationship is your client’s going to be looking for the same thing and you will not be delivering it. So, they will be kind of floundering in the coaching relationship. And I think how that shows up and you can just tell me what your thoughts are about this. But when it comes to sales and business, you know how my brain works, it’s all about business.

But the way that it I think shows up is you have clients that constantly are quitting, they’re falling off, they’re not engaged. They’re like, “I mean I see your point. It sounds like a good idea.” But they’re not actually deeply doing the work. And so, I think that your level of awareness allows you to take your clients into a level of awareness that creates permanent change that without your ability to do that for yourself or your clients will make your money, consults, clients, staying on, staying all the way through, renewing, all of that. It makes it so much more difficult.

Lindsay: Yeah. I think it’s like if you don’t believe that that is actually the first step or if you don’t believe it’s important then yeah, when your clients come to you with like, “Wait, but.” It’s just so easy to get derailed. Your client can say one thing and you’re like, “Oh no, what if they’re right. What if I am just supposed to be telling them what to do.”

Stacey: Yeah, 100%. And I do think I am a very heavy, I coach a lot on the model. I also know other coaching tools and it’s not how I started. I coached with a coach for, I don’t know, a year or so, year and a half, two years before I ever went to the school. And she had a very different teaching style. But the one thing that I think now shows up in my work is I have all these tools to lean on but also ultimately at the end of the day, I have the really good questions. I have the awareness for myself and for my clients.

I was just talking to someone, and they were saying how amazing the last 200K call was. And I said, my awareness was just so on fire that they would start and within a couple of sentences I would write a question down and then I would let them keep going. And then by the time they got to the end, the question, I would be like, “Oh my God, you’re not going to believe the question I wrote down at the beginning, which was this.” And it was the question or the thing that unlocked everything for them. And I got that immediately. I didn’t even need the rest of their story.

I still heard it to make sure I verified the direction I wanted to go. But it was like it stood out so far or stood out so clear. And so, I think that that sharpness that you develop as a coach is every aspect of the coaching relationship, your ability to be that laser sharp and catch that. And you can plug in no matter what coaching tool it is, you can plug in somebody’s problem to that and use that, but you’ve got to have an ability to go way beyond that I think.

Lindsay: Yeah. I think it starts with just being able to be in the moment and just what you were just describing, just really listen to what your client is saying. And just catch that first thing maybe that you’re like, “Wait a minute, that’s not a truth.” They’re delivering it like this is the truth. And I know as the coach that this is standing out to me as like, let me just poke some holes in this, let me question it a little bit. And one thing I do want to say because I coach on this a lot.

So, one of my weekly, so I do weekly calls in the Coach Lab and very similar to 2K. But once a month, one of the calls is a workshop so it’s a little more interactive. And we just had one and it was on asking powerful questions. And one thing I want to say in case anyone’s hearing you and thinking because this is something that comes up for so many coaches is like, yeah, but how do you know that amazing question to ask? Because I think when they hear you say that what they hear is it has to be this perfectly crafted complicated.

Stacey: There’s a right question to ask.

Lindsay: Yes. And what I teach is, no, no, it’s probably just whatever question just comes to your mind like you’re a little kid. Why would you do that? You might not ask it in that way but it’s just simple.

Stacey: Yes. It’s deeply rooted in curiosity, right?

Lindsay: And it’s just a simple question. It’s not like, well, when you took that action and you saw that this happened then how were you really feeling? It’s not that. It’s like, well, why are you thinking this? Whatever. It just is a simple question. It is not a 20 point let me get out my laser pointer, PowerPoint presentation to break down the entire, the thought pattern.

Stacey: Yeah. Okay, so I’m going to give them examples.

Lindsay: I love it.

Stacey: Can I give examples?

Lindsay: Yeah.

Stacey: Because I write down everything when I’m coaching people. So, these are some of them.

Lindsay: I was like, what do you have, my workbook?

Stacey: No. I think it’s sometimes helpful to be like we’re talking about it in theory. And I’m like, let’s say what a legit question, what we’re talking about, what that might be.

Lindsay: This is going to get real weird if I’m like, “That’s a terrible question, don’t ever ask that.”

Stacey: I don’t think you will. And they’re not blanket, these are actual questions you would ask someone after hearing your client’s problem. But some of them that I asked were one person which is so ironic. I actually talked about them on the last episode, the part one of this where I said that they were trying to sign three clients in one month and they had 18 no’s before that. And so, she had gotten one or two sentences out. And I wrote the question, and I didn’t even know. This is so interesting to talk about this.

When I wrote it my thought was literally, I don’t know if this makes sense. Or I don’t know if this is going anywhere. This is just what came up for me. I don’t even know, in the moment I wasn’t even sure what it meant for me. it was just the question that came up which is, what if you work on what you can’t control? And she was like, “I’m working on all these things I can control in my launch. I’m really trying to focus on, I know I can control this, I know can control this, I know I can control this.”

And so that was the first information she gave me other than the C’s of the results she was creating and the result she had currently. And then this is what I’m doing. And she felt like it was a really good thing. She was like, “I feel like I’m staying focused.” Because I’m always like, “Only focus on the things you can control and ignore the things you can’t.” So that’s where she got it from, but it was very strategy. And the thought, I just had this intuition of there is some piece where there is things she can’t control and that stuff is probably where the problem is, just because of how focused she was.

And it turned out it’s on processing the emotions. That’s something that we can’t control is how long, because the question she asked me afterwards when I told her, “You have unprocessed emotions around a result.” She was like, “Well, how long do I have to spend processing them?” So, she wanted to control how long. And I was like, “I don’t know.” I was like, “I’m in a deep processing emotions right now and it’s been a week. I don’t know.” I don’t know how long it’s going to take for me.

Lindsay: I’ll let you know when it’s over.

Stacey: Yeah, I’ll let you know when it’s over. So, it wasn’t a specific question. It was just a very like, and I just wrote it down. And I let her finish because I didn’t know, for that one it felt very like, I don’t even know why this is what’s coming up for me, but this is what’s coming up. And so, then once she finished it made so much sense. And anyways, another one that I wrote. Let’s see. Now, I’m going to laugh if that was the only one I actually wrote down. You see, one of them was, what if the money is not going to stop? That one’s just a really simple one.

Lindsay: Yeah. That’s probably when they’re telling you something and they’re like, “This is just the truth is like I’ve sold this thing.” If I were to adopt all the people’s thoughts about my program I’d be like, “But I sold it to everybody who wants to buy it and now obviously we’re done here, now what? The money’s going to stop.”

Stacey: Okay. So, any extension of asking good questions is also I think, and I’m curious what you think about this is, it’s not always just the question but sometimes writing the statement down, that stands out as they’re believing one truth. And you’re like, this could also be true. So, for example, one of the things I wrote was, one of my clients was like, “I feel like I’m just constantly on the hamster wheel.” And as he was talking I just wrote down, I was thinking, I wonder if he knows the hamster wheel happens in his mind and not in his action line.

So, I just wrote, hamster wheel happens in the mind. And then by the time he finished it, when I said it to him he was like, “Wait. What?” And it was just me hearing the way he was describing it was like it was this thing that happens as a result of not being able. The way he was explaining it is like he’s running so fast to get all the things improved in his business. And then more things keep emerging and it feels like he thought the lie was, he thought that when I finally get all these things done the wheel will stop. And I was like, he doesn’t know that his brain is creating this wheel.

Lindsay: He could just get off now and still keep creating results.

Stacey: And his brain could just be calm. So, it’s like that is the kind of stuff that I think that when you rely too heavily on tools and you’re too in your own brain that it makes it really hard to be focused and paying attention and curious. And actually, just really listening to what someone’s saying.

Lindsay: Yeah. I think it’s actually easier especially for new coaches to just focus on asking questions and just exploring what’s actually happening here. Let’s question all of these thoughts versus let me use this very specific tool that I have and make sure it each line is filled out perfectly.

Stacey: Make sure your story fits in, in every single one, especially with the model. I do see people do that.

Lindsay: Yes. And there are, I mean I thought, but this was like an LCS thing but it’s not. Almost all coaches no matter where they’ve been certified, they have some kind of tool that they use in a very similar way that’s like, but what’s the thought here though? I need to get the thought, I need to find it. What they just told you, 20 thoughts, what is happening? Stop. Put the math equation away. What do you want to know? Let’s just ask a question, what do you want to know?

And I think that’s one of the – I teach this a little bit in my mastermind because in my mastermind we do actually practice coaching. And sometimes I’ll just stop someone and just say, “What do you just want to know? What are you really curious about right now? Because you’re trying to piece it together like a puzzle in your head before you ask a question. But let’s just assume you have everything you’re thinking is wrong. Why are you depending on your brain. Let’s go to the client’s brain. What are you just curious about?”

Stacey: So good, yes, we do, do that. We try to piece everything together on our mind. And we’re working so much harder.

Lindsay: It’s like trying to figure out where is this going so I can coach on where it’s going. And it’s really fascinating to see you don’t actually know where it’s going. And I’m sure you’ve had this experience because I know I have where it’s like, I think for sure, I’m like, “Ooh, I got this, this is going to be so good.” And then I’ll say something, and they’re like, “That’s actually not what I’m thinking about it.” And I’m like, “Oh, sorry. That must be my thoughts.

Stacey: If it’s so convenient, if my prescription was exactly what’s happening in your mind because I know exactly what to say to that.

Lindsay: Yeah. And I just think so many coaches cause themselves so much stress and heartache trying to figure out where is this going instead of we’re right here, come back to present and just ask a question. It’s so much easier and it’s so much less work and so much more effective.

Stacey: So, you also help them staying out of assuming because I have actually, I was just talking to an employee about this recently. I could tell that she was assuming another employee was thinking something. And then she kept trying to tell her one prescriptive thing over and over. And then I would see the employee kind of get a little bit defensive. And I was like, “That’s happening because you’re being prescriptive with her. But because you’ve decided this is what’s causing it, but you don’t really know.”

And so, I gave her some advice of, “Why don’t you just go in with curiosity and not know and try to get the answer from her instead of giving her the answer.” And she was like, “You were right, it was not at all what I was assuming, and it was this whole other thing.” And then because it was this whole other thing the answer was a completely different answer. The solution was completely different. And I was like, “I had a feeling, that happens.”

Lindsay: Yeah. And I think sometimes that can be one of the trickiest things about coaching is that sometimes we make assumptions from a place where it’s like it really feels true that most of the humans would agree with us. Almost like it’s bordering on a fact. But just the fact that you’re assuming it and moving forward, coaching someone with the assumption could feel very awkward for the client if the assumption isn’t true. It might be close to the truth or what they think should be the truth but it’s not.

Stacey: So good. So, you help them navigate all of this?

Lindsay: Yes. So that’s one. So, there are kind of three when they login to the vault, that’s one, it’s called the Skills Lab. And that is just all of these five things, all of that is what I teach in there.

Stacey: Okay. So, talk to me about, we’ve talked about awareness and decision making. No, awareness and asking amazing questions. Let’s talk about decision making.

Lindsay: What do you want to talk about? This is one of my favorite things to talk about, I’m obsessed with decision making.

Stacey: No, you tell me. Okay, tell me all the things.

Lindsay: So, I think one of the most powerful things we can do as coaches, and this is just one type of decision that I teach on but one that I find isn’t talked about in most places that I go as a coach. Is that one of the most powerful things we can do is show our clients when they have unmade decisions and how that’s affecting all the things. Decisions that they don’t even know that they haven’t made. Not decisions that they’re trying to make or that they’re like, “Okay, I know this is there, but I don’t want to make it.”

But when they really just haven’t – they don’t even know it’s there and once they make it, it’s going to be so clear.

Stacey: Interesting. So, what are decisions I haven’t made?

Lindsay: So, we actually touched a little bit on it, a little bit on the last episode that we recorded about if you’re thinking about a launch. Let’s say I haven’t picked an end date for my launch. But I haven’t focused on it. I’m like, this isn’t a problem, we’re just going to see what happens. And I just haven’t made that decision and then I just go into the launch without that being made. Not even really knowing that it’s a thing that I need to do and why I need to do it. But how much drama does that create?

Well, I don’t know, when do the applications close? I have no idea. How long am I going to do this? Should I tell them that they’re closing? I don’t know. Whereas if you just make it, make the decision, see that it’s there, that it needs to be made. Okay, the decision’s made. Now we get to work on actual drama instead of the very nebulous out in the clouds drama that just creates confusion and spinning.

Stacey: It’s so good. So, I’m going to do this after our call at some point. It’s a Friday, so I’ll do it this weekend. But I wrote, what decisions do I know I haven’t made yet. And then what decisions haven’t I made that I don’t know yet? It’s very interesting.

Lindsay: And sometimes we know, this is something I teach too. Sometimes we know there’s a decision that we need to make that we’re like okay, I’m penning this, maybe I don’t have enough information, I need to talk to someone else about it. It’s not just my decision. I need to, whatever, there are reasons that we do that. And even then I just teach, “Okay, but decide when you’re going to make it. And don’t think about it till then.”

If you’re going to make this decision next week after you’ve talked to your husband and researched the other options and whatever. Here are the things I need to do. But just don’t think about it till then because don’t stress over it, don’t worry about it. You’re going to make it next week.

Stacey: So good. And if people don’t know how to get themselves to make decisions and live in a place where they’re making decisions. I think about this a lot is if they are like – what was the term I used to call it? Open cycles or open circles. Where you just have all these open decisions in your life and you’re not able to close them out effectively. If you can’t do that for yourself how will you do that for your clients? How does it show up for your clients when they are giving – what examples do they bring when they’re working with clients where this shows up?

Lindsay: So, here’s where, and your clients if they’re listening are probably going to be like, “Oh my gosh, wait, I need to go figure out where all my open decisions are.” I always say the markers of it are any time there is confusion, or overwhelm, or any emotion that is a spinning emotion, that keeps you coming back to the same thing over and over. The first question is always, what decisions haven’t you made? Because that drama is so unproductive. It doesn’t move you forward. It just keeps you right where you are.

And until you see, until you figure out, what haven’t I decided here, whatever, you can’t move forward. Because you’re spinning in this like, well, I just don’t even know how to move forward. So, I see this in 200K, in people’s businesses. I just don’t even know what to do, there’s probably some unmade decisions. You’re still going to have drama when you make them but it’s going to be productive. It’s going to be, okay, I picked that end date for my launch, now here’s what comes up. That’s very different than I just don’t know.

Stacey: The drama of I don’t want to choose this date because I think they’re going to need this much time and I haven’t done enough preselling ahead of time and this, and this, and this reason. And I’m thinking of this because you know right now on a friend level, you know I’m in a place where I’m making lots of decisions. And what I wrote down is, and they’re uncomfortable decisions.

Lindsay: This is just turning into me coaching you, let’s do it.

Stacey: Yeah. But I wrote down, when you’re confused, and you’re overwhelmed, and you’re spinning what you tend to do is seek more information.

Lindsay: Yeah, which sometimes just makes it worse. If you do that before you’ve made any decisions, if you just go looking for more information to pile on the spinning, that’s no good, it’s definitely not useful.

Stacey: No. But you think that you’re looking for more information to make the decision easier. What you’re actually doing is piling on drama to the decision. It’s totally what I’m doing. You guys, this is why I make Lindsay coach me all the time. That’s basically the bedrock of our friendship is her coaching me on my brain.

Lindsay: I think here’s what, and I don’t know, I’m curious what you think about this but what I’m thinking when you said that is here’s the distinction. If you are like, okay, I know exactly what decision I need to make. And I know exactly what information I need to make the decision. That’s one thing. That’s like okay, go get that information then come back and make the decision.

Stacey: Yeah. No, that’s not what I’m doing.

Lindsay: If it’s like, I don’t really know what the decision is, I’m just confused and overwhelmed, or whatever, let me just go gather more.

Stacey: I’m just like, let me gather as much information as possible. And it still doesn’t feel like enough so let me find some more, and then some more, and some more. Yeah, this is when you know you’re off track. So good.

Lindsay: I forget who I was talking to the other day, but they gave the example of the Cheesecake Factory menu. I haven’t been there in a long time but it’s like you open it.

Stacey: Yes. Neil used to go there on a weekly basis. It was bad. It was right by my house, it was just very easy and convenient.

Lindsay: Okay. So, you know what I’m going to say, right?

Stacey: Yeah.

Lindsay: You open it and you’re like, here’s the menu, it’s five pages but then you keep flipping and it’s like, wait, that’s like the pre menu to the menu. I don’t understand. So, it’s like you already don’t know what you want to eat because a lot of it looks good, what am I going to order? And then you flip a couple more pages and you’re like, wait, there’s a whole another menu with 100 more options. Now I’m just really confused. It’s like that.

Stacey: Yeah, a 100%. Neil has actually asked me, I have had so much food resistance now. And so, my God, he does this thing. I did tell him yesterday, “Stop.” This is what he does. Nothing sounds good so he goes in the fridge, bless his heart, he’s so sweet. He’s doing this from love. He goes to the fridge, and he’ll start naming things very rapidly that he could make me. We have this, we have this, we have this, I could do this, I could do this. And all my brain is doing is going no, no, no, no, no.

I don’t have time to land on anything and even possibly consider it because he’s shoving ideas down my throat. But he does this with restaurants too. And one of the things he’ll do is be like, “There’s Cheesecake Factory.” And I’m like, “Hell no.” When you’re having food aversions and you’re struggling to imagine anything, it seems like you would want a huge plethora of information and decision, lots, and lots, and lots of options. And I’m like, no, no, I need three.

And then I have to sit here and deeply imagine myself possibly consuming this one thing at a time. I have to imagine it, smelling it, and looking at it. I’ve never had this issue with food ever. But even pregnant you probably know, where I’m just consistently like, okay, let me imagine noodles right now. Noodles, smelling them, tasting them. And he’s onto 30 other things. And I’m like, “Cheesecake Factory’s menu, for sure, I don’t want any part of that, that would be very overwhelming for me.

Lindsay: I used to have that exact experience actually. And I would be like, “I already said I want a bagel, if you say one more thing”, when I was pregnant especially with my oldest daughter all I ever wanted was bagels. And it would be like, “If you say one more thing I’m going to lose my mind. I don’t know. I know that you don’t think that sounds good for dinner but it’s all I want. So, I’m going to need you to just make the bagel and deliver it to be me before I lose my mind.”

Stacey: Bless their hearts.

Lindsay: Yeah, I get it, I know, so much love.

Stacey: Okay, let’s talk about strategy.

Lindsay: Let’s do it. So, this is…

Stacey: You have to tell me, so I have ideas of questions to ask you.

Lindsay: Right. That’s how this is going. So, strategy isn’t something, there’s not a lot that I teach because I don’t teach them, okay, here’s the strategy you’re going to teach your clients especially in the Coach Lab. We work on that a little more in the mastermind where we’re working on a little bit higher level of okay, now you have your clients, let’s work on your process, on your own intellectual property, all of that. But in the Coach Lab it’s more just know if you have one or not. Stay out of the drama of no, my client asked me, “What’s a good scheduling system to use?”

And I’m like, “Okay, well, is it that something you teach or no?” And they’re like so much drama. And I’m like, “No, no, hold on, hold on, hold on. I’m not saying you can’t coach them on it. I’m just saying is that something you teach or is it not? There’s not a right answer. Let’s just decide, is that something you teach your clients?” And they’re like, “No, but.” And I’m like, “Well, what’s the thought, what’s coming up for you, no but what?”

Stacey: That’s so interesting. This makes me think about, it all goes back to confidence because if you have thoughts, a set of thoughts that make you feel not confident as a coach, you go into the coaching relationship. Inevitably what’s going to happen I promise you, Lindsay can assure you as well. That your clients that you sign, their job to make you a better coach is [inaudible] every single circumstance your way that will reflect to you your lack of confidence as a coach. So, I’m going to give a tangible example of this around strategy.

So, this was a point where I had a lot of confidence. So, this isn’t a story of me having lack of confidence, but it gives a good idea. I had lots of confidence in my coaching. I was coaching network marketers at the time. This was a couple of years into my business. And I remember that my client who tended to be very combative to begin with, but she would come to the call, and she would be like, “Well, teach me how to do anything in business.” I can’t remember what she asked me that week.

It might have been, I don’t know, webinars or something like the calendaring thing is what made me remember this client. I think it was how to create a blog. That’s what it was, it was how to create a blog. She was like, “Can you teach me how to create a blog?” And I was like, “I don’t know how to create a blog. I’ve never created a blog.” And she was like, “But you’re my business coach so you should be teaching me these things.” And I was like, “But lots of businesses don’t have a blog. Why do you need a blog?”

She very much expected that every single things that she does in her business I should already know how to do and be able to teach her how to do it, walk her through it. But because I had confidence as a coach I didn’t take that on and freak out and be like, “Oh my God, I’ve got to go learn how to do a blog and I’m failing my client. And my client’s upset with me.” I coached her on her brain and why she thought that I needed to know how to do every type of business thing you could possibly ever know in order to help her.

And the conversation went a completely different place but if you’re lacking confidence your immediate thought will be, I’m lacking this skill that I should have to help this client who’s just told me I should have the skill in order to help them. And then I go into me and make it about me instead of going into their brain and coaching their brain.

Lindsay: Yes, I spend a lot of time on the weekly call saying, “Why do you think you need to teach your client how to do that? What’s happening?” So many coaches do it and it’s so sneaky. It can sneak in, in the smallest of ways. It just shows up in many different scenarios even with coaches who have lots of clients, who it’s the one thing that they’re, “Well, I haven’t filled my launches completely, but my client just asked me “What’s the secret to filling my launch every time?” And I’m like, why would you ask me that? I don’t know.”

They get so defensive. And I’m like, “Hold on. What is happening in your brain, let’s just rewind a little bit. Why do you think you need to be able to tell them that? Let’s start there.”

Stacey: Yeah, because they think that they have thoughts about themselves as coaches. It’s so good.

Lindsay: Yeah. I guess I do have some business coaches but that was just the first example that came to me because that’s what you were talking about. But it could be in any niche. That can come up where it’s like, okay, just because you’re let’s say a marriage coach doesn’t mean that you’ve had every experience that you could possibly ever have in a marriage and know exactly how to handle it. That just doesn’t even make sense logically.

So, anyone that has issues with this, I always say, “If you think of a niche that isn’t even close to yours. It’s like something totally off the wall, so different than what you coach on. And think of a similar example and just see how silly it sounds. I should be able to – I don’t know – the marriage example is what just came to me. Or the calendaring. I should have tried every single calendaring method that has ever been created. There are many of them so I can tell my client.

Stacey: This is a good one. If you’re a weight loss coach and someone’s like, “Well, talk to me about my macros and my” – I don’t know what the other one is – micros, macros and counting calories. And you’re like, “No, I don’t do that.” Versus, oh my God, I’ve got to go get a nutritional degree and I’ve got to go do this because my client wants to know how to do this, and I’ve got to figure it out for them. And I only have a week until our next call.

Lindsay: Here is my favorite, Googling it and then trying to tell the client what you Googled. I’m like, Why, they can do that, why not coach them and let’s explore this together. What do you think about macros?” You can do it, it’s never like talking to clients at like the blog. You don’t have to talk the client out of the blog, but let’s just explore this. Why do you think you need a blog? Let’s just start there.

And then if they’re like, “Okay, no, here’s why.” And they sound like good reasons, and they still want a blog, okay, well, how do we think we’re going to figure this out? Let’s just explore it. It’s always leaning back into the curiosity.

Stacey: Yeah. So, I just wrote this down, it feels like the theme of this particular part of our conversation is when you don’t have confidence in your ability to guide a client and to be a really good coach. When your confidence is lacking there, what ends up happening is you overwork for your client in a useful way that doesn’t produce more results for them.

Lindsay: And keeps them always needing you in not a good way. Because let’s say you take it on every time and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, you’re right, I should know how to do a blog. I’m going to go learn that this week and I’ll come back and give you ideas.” That takes all of their resourcefulness and all of it, you’re just taking it on, you’re not even giving them the opportunity to figure it out on their own or even just to explore it with them. Not that you have to say, “No, I’m not doing that, go do it on your own.”

But let’s just explore it together. And when you take that and you don’t allow them any of it, to me that’s doing a client a disservice.

Stacey: Yeah, 100%, so good. I had another thought, and I didn’t have time to write it down and now I can’t remember what it was. So, if it comes back to me I will address it. Okay, so we haven’t talked about, what’s the one we haven’t talked about? Future goal setting.

Lindsay: Yeah,  I mean that’s just what it sounds like. So really what I teach is for every coach, coaches do this odd thing. It’s never something I did. So, it always catches me off guard when it happens. But they’ll be like, “My client just keeps coming to the call with nothing to coach on.” And I’m like, “Okay, well, what are you working on? Why did they hire you? What is the goal?” There’s some sort of goal, I don’t care what kind of coach you are, sometimes people want to argue about this. No, every client has some kind of goal.

Stacey: [Crosstalk], right?

Lindsay: Yeah, you can have lots but what are we working on today? There could be, yeah, there could always be many goals but sometimes they’re like, “I don’t know.” I’m like, “Wait, what, how do you not know what you’re working on? Let’s start there.” The first step one, set a goal of some kind, any kind. I’ve done a whole podcast about this where you don’t even have to call it a goal if that word is like, I don’t like goals. But just knowing what direction are we headed, if you haven’t done that piece.

Yeah, it’s really hard to coach a client when you don’t know what’s going on and they also don’t know what’s going on. You’re both waiting for the other person to just decide.

Stacey: Yeah. I always liked when I was coaching one-on-one. For every client when I got on a call I had always already thought about something I could talk to them about if they came with nothing to the call based on the consult and something they had told me they wanted to work on. So, if you’re in 2K, one of the ways that we teach consults, we take a conversational way too, that’s very niche specific. But if you’re new and you’re a general life coach or you might be exploring that.

We give them the option of learning how to do a consult based on a life wheel where it navigates a lot of different areas of their life. They rate those areas, they rate what it would be like to have a 10, so that you have a before and after for them. And then you have an idea of why they think they’re not at that 10 in their life and what they’re attributing to the reason they don’t have the results they have. And you can keep that and literally use that the entire coaching relationship to constantly be revisiting.

So, for a lot of my clients, I would do that. You can even do a business wheel. There’s so many different ways to do it. But I would take that, and I feel like after the first what, I don’t know, three months, six months, you get so good at it that your brain, you no longer need it. And you just remember what they’re working on or things they’ve said that they want in their life. But I would always bring something to be able to be like – I notice my coach says this too because there’s many calls that I get on that I don’t have a huge problem to work through.

And she’ll be like, “Well, a couple of calls ago we talked about this, do you want to address this on this call?” But that is the difference of making a client feel like they’re complete in the relationship or not, or there’s nothing left to work on. Or they didn’t need it as much as they thought or whatever. For me it’s the difference of them seeing value or not. If they don’t have a problem or they don’t have something pressing on their mind, you don’t want them to think that the call was a total waste.

It’s your opportunity to go in and be like, “Okay, so this call we’re going to talk about this.” And I do think people struggle with that a lot.

Lindsay: Yeah. It’s actually probably my most listened to, I think, podcast where I just talk, that’s all I talk about the whole podcast. And I give eight ideas of what to do when this happens. But one of them that I think coaches forget that this is also an option because is it’s a problem when clients come and they’re like, “Oh no, but it is working, now what?” Which is so funny. This is great. It’s great news and also sometimes creates lots of drama for coaches.

And I’m like, “There’s always the option, sometimes you’re exploring why it’s not working but you can also explore why is it working.” This is a really good thing to explore because if they know why they can continue it in the future when at some point it’s not going to be working, whatever the thing is that you’re working on. And they can come back to these thoughts that you’re helping really solidify in their brain when you spend time focusing on, well, what is working?

Stacey: Yeah. It’s so good. Or you could do an entire call with them on the capacity to have that result that they created that’s working. I just had a friend text me who made a lot of money in a very short amount of time. And I don’t remember what her exact question was, but it was basically like, “So I’ve noticed that my brain is now freaking out about it a little bit. And I am not making as much money now. I’m seeing my income go down after a huge influx of cash.” And she was like, “So is it just every time I bring in a lot of money I have to work on my capacity?”

She didn’t frame it like that, “But I have to work on being able to receive more money beyond that and be okay with the money I’ve received?” And I was like, “Yeah, every single time.”

Lindsay: Pretty much.

Stacey: Pretty much all the time, that’s what you’ve got to do. So, there’s so many things. So, I love that. So, one of the things you help people with is essentially not ever running out of something to talk about on a coaching call and always having a place to go with your client no matter what they bring to you that they want you to help them on even if it’s something that you don’t do.

Lindsay: Yes.

Stacey: How to address that with a client, so good.

Lindsay: Yes, frequent coaching within the lab.

Stacey: So, is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you coach on a lot in the lab? Because I feel these are things that I see a lot in coaches, that they don’t realize are solvable problems that they feel they’re more like it’s an inherent issue with them.

Lindsay: Right, yes. I feel like that could be the crux of kind of what I do in the Coach Lab is I’m like, “Listen, it’s actually not you. Let’s just figure it out. This isn’t a problem that you have as a human. This is just you’re unsure of how to handle this thing and I can show you. Let’s just work on it.”

Stacey: Because it’s what I say all the time is it’s so un-useful to go to your self-worth or your just general self-confidence issues, or learning more deeply about yourself, or improving yourself. There’s just a lot of, I’ve got to up my level of worthiness to either be a better coach or make more money.

Lindsay: Yeah, pretty much. The only thing that we haven’t really kind of gone into that we talk about in the lab is I touch a little bit, a lot of this happens more in Coaching Masters. But within the lab I do spend some time on and ironically it all comes back to making decisions. But there’s so much drama around, I talk a little bit about coaching containers. So just making decisions. Well, how do you coach? Do you coach on Zoom? Do you coach on the phone? There’s just so much drama especially with newer coaches.

They’re like, “Well, my client asked this, and I don’t know.” Think, well, okay, the only reason you don’t know is because you haven’t decided.

Stacey: Oh my God, this is what it was from earlier. Are you ready? It just hit me. This is what I also think that a really good coach has the ability to do, and you’ll agree it’s a very simple thing, but I do find when I see people. People post all the time in 2K about, I just got off a client call and they said this or whatever. And I think when you have extreme confidence in your coaching skills, here’s what happens. You always lead the relationship instead of your client leading the relationship.

So, you have answers to all of these things, well, I want it to be in person, I want it to be on Zoom, or I want it to be on a phone call. And sometimes maybe you do have, this is what I was thinking of when you said this is I had a client that came once in 2K and posted and said something about she does calls on Zoom. This person wanted to do it on the phone because they weren’t feeling well.

And then the coach was like if I’m remembering correctly. And then the coach was like, “Well, no, we just do it on Zoom. You need to either reschedule or you should really consider the thoughts that would allow you to show up.” I don’t know, it was something. And I was like, “But this person is sick. I think it’s okay.” And I remember telling them, I used to meet with my coach on Zoom and now we meet on the phone because I use that time to prop my feet up being very pregnant and sit somewhere comfortable because it’s more uncomfortable for me to be in my office.

But that has nothing to do with thought work that is limiting in me. I have a physical actual condition and if we could work around it why wouldn’t we? But I think that when you feel unconfident in your coaching you either freak out if your client wants to introduce something new to you that you don’t normally do as a standard. And you don’t know what to do or you try to manhandle it in a way that is not really useful to you or your client.

And so, I think that that’s something that is super useful if you’re a coach to spend time and energy on is becoming that coach that knows when to give it back to the client. And when to maybe bend a little or have a little bit of grace.

Lindsay: Right, yeah. I think a lot of it comes back to that control piece. So, if coaches feel like they maybe aren’t the best coach, they try to control and micromanage all the other little pieces of like, well, the example you just gave. Well, this person doesn’t want to show up, so I told her she has to show up. And I’m like, “Wait, what?”

Stacey: Or this person is constantly missing calls, so I told them they have to pay for the calls.

Lindsay: Yes. It’s always the energy that it’s coming from. And my question is always like, “Well, have you just talked to them about that?” And it’s like, “Wait, what? What do you mean, I just have a conversation?” “Yes, you just have a conversation.” I’m just really curious, it always comes back to curiosity. I’m so curious. What is happening? And if it’s one time and they’re sick, yeah, they’re probably just sick. If it’s the seventh time, okay, yeah, let’s definitely have a conversation, something is going on here, let’s figure out what it is.

Stacey: So good. What is the difference between the foundational skills that you teach and the advanced skills you teach? So, if someone were thinking about joining Coaching Masters, what are they going to get that’s different than in the Coach Lab?

Lindsay: I think the biggest, well, there are several big differences. But one of the biggest differences is between the foundational skills and then Coaching Mastery. To me it is, Coaching Mastery is taking foundational skills and making them more of your own, making them more of your style, your intellectual property added into your coaching, your specific process. Really creating a little more this is specifically what I do, this is what makes me a little different than other coaches. This is the style of coaching that I use.

This is how my personality comes into my coaching and I own that. So, if you don’t like that I’m direct, or funny, or gentle, or whatever, that’s okay. I’m just not your coach. So, it’s a lot more of just taking the foundational skills and saying, “Okay, now how do I really lean into this is who I am as a coach?”

Stacey: That’s so good. You said there were more. I got my pad ready, I’m writing.

Lindsay: I got so into that one. Probably most of them kind of all under that. So, I think I said a couple of them as I was explaining that because I think most of them, we talk about what are your values as a human? How does that show up in your coaching? What is your process now and what do you want it to be? Some coaches come in and maybe they’re one-on-one coaches and they know that it’s time to create a group. And they’re like, “Okay, I kind of know my process for one-on-one but I really want to spend a little time honing that for this thing that I’m creating now.”

Or coaches might come in with, “I’m ready to really kind of create some of my own tools. I see what’s missing here. I see what’s missing here.” And we’ll work on that a little bit. But they really kind of all fall under that, taking the foundation of okay, now I have the confidence. I know what I’m doing and I’m ready for what’s the next level of that.

Stacey: So, it’s like if you’re an LCS coach, there’s the space where you just get comfortable coaching the model and coaching and not trying to just put everything in the model in a weird way. And you coach a lot of other people that are not LCS but I’m just…

Lindsay: Right, just using this as the example.

Stacey: I’ve only been through one certification, so this is the example that I have as a student. And then the advanced level of that is how do I stand out as someone in the community with my own body of work. That although I use the model is just one tool in this bag that I have that I employ as a very self-created, confident coach that is standing on my own ideas, and my own brain, and my own investigations, and my own values in this industry.

Lindsay: Yes, that’s exactly what it is. Can you send me the replay of that because that’s going to go on the sales page. But yes, that’s exactly what it is.

Stacey: I’m trying to understand because I wanted to have you on this conversation and talk to you about it because I am so intrigued by the work that you do.

Lindsay: And we haven’t really talked about it in a long time. I’ve just kind of been over here doing my thing.

Stacey: But I do, I mean I said this on the first episode, but I really do find that your clients come in and their level of understanding, their just level of awareness, their coachability, and their responsibility are all so high. And the way that they can take something and then come back with it, it’s just always very impressive to me.

Lindsay: You know what it is? I just realized what it is in this moment, I think why that happens. Because of what I’m teaching them and because I really am helping them own so much of who they are, and who they are in the industry, and what they do as a coach. They don’t question any of that anymore. So, then they come into 200K. Because it’s like when you have this package and you know this is who I am, this is what I teach, it’s so much easier to go out and sell it without questioning, wait, is it me, is it my self-worth? Do I need to work on myself more?

Do I need to go get this other training? I think that’s a lot of what I teach my clients is to stop looking outside of yourself and just really own this is who I am. I know what I’m doing. Now I just have to figure out how to sell it, which is when they come to you.

Stacey: That’s what it is, okay. You just articulated. I feel like the people that we work with mutually, what I notice of them, when they come in and they’ve worked with you is this, the way that they problem solve and navigate the coaching or whatever they’re trying to do in their business. Whatever problem solving, they rarely go to strategy as the answer. They’re always very onto themselves. Their assessment is usually very correct. And then the drama of the work required to go fix it is very little. That’s what I see from them.

And I think that that’s important, basically for everyone listening, I messaged Lindsay and I was like, “Okay, listen, we need to do a two part episode where we talk about your launch because it was so incredible. But then we have to sell your coaching and your program.” And the reason for this, and I don’t do this very often but the reason for it is working with your clients is so enjoyable for me. And it’s so much easier a lot of times. I can just spot them out, I know who they are. And I think that their level of just their mindset game is very strong.

And I think that’s it. I mean I’ve said a lot of different reasons but that to me feels like the closest. I want to say it’s their coachability but really it’s like how I just broke that down, in their assessment, the drama around the assessment. Their ability to actually go out and just get it done and work on it and come back and report is all very high.

Lindsay: So, it’s so funny, I love having this conversation because I’m like, oh yeah, I guess I just never realized that that’s what I teach but it’s so much of what I teach. Which is even in the Coach Lab we start there where it’s like just decide what you’re working on in your coaching and work on it. Don’t let yourself spin out of, and I’m a terrible coach and I have no idea what I’m doing. And I’ll never get this and whatever. It’s, no, pick the couple things that you’re working on right now and then work on them and then evaluate them, evaluate your coaching.

And then figure out what to do from there. Okay, are we still working on this? That’s okay. Are we not, are we moving on to something else? Great. But it’s instead of saying, making it one big blanket statement of I don’t know what I’m doing, or I have so much to learn before I can be a great coach, or whatever the thoughts are. Instead of that, well, why? What do you need to work on? Let’s actually figure it out. That’s going to be a lot more useful than just having this overall overarching statement of, well, my clients aren’t getting results. That’s a big one.

Or I don’t know what I’m doing, or whatever, let’s actually figure out why and just work on it. We don’t have to pile all the piles of drama on top of it.

Stacey: Yeah, so that’s another thing when you said that, that made me think about what separates them as well is their self-concept of themselves as a coach is just much higher. So, when you have a high self-concept of yourself as a coach, you don’t tend to spin in ambiguous drama. You know exactly how to point it out, get to work on it and then you move on.

Lindsay: The funny thing about all of this is that I spent probably a couple months last year thinking with the thought of wait a minute, I don’t actually know how to teach this. This is just who I am as a human. What if this is – don’t interrupt because you’re going to laugh when I get to the end. I’m like, what if this is just who I am? I’m just calm and I just have relatively low drama. And what if it’s not teachable? And then I remembered when I hired you as my coach when I was having panic attacks and my anxiety was out of control.

And I was the ultimate spinner in all of the drama. And I’m like, “Oh yeah. No, no, no, I have actually just really learned how to not do that.” I’ve really taught myself. And not that I never do, I have drama just like everyone else. I just don’t allow it to take over which is what used to happen when you were just my life coach helping me get my life together.

Stacey: Yeah. The one thing that I was thinking about when you were saying that though because I feel like you and I are such good friends. And we’re so different, I feel like night and day. And I’ll explain why in a second. And then you’ll be like yes, based on what you just said.

Lindsay: No, I agree, yeah.

Stacey: But I think it’s very useful which is also why I love having you on these two episodes. I like exposing people to different types of personalities and ways of processing as coaches because it can be really easy to feel like if I’m not like Stacey, or Brooke. Because I do think Brooke and I are very similar. I think sometimes that comes off as like I’m being her protégé. No. The truth is just naturally it happens to be, Brooke and I have very similar personalities, very similar energy, very similar likes, all the things. That was always the case.

My personality has always been that way. I think hers has always relatively been that way.

Lindsay: Agree.

Stacey: And it’s not a requirement to do really well with your coach or to be a good coach, to be a huge personality, to do really well. So, I always love having you on because we’re so different. But I guess in this conversation what I want to say is if you don’t coach like me, when you’re in my world, if you’re listening to the podcast or you’re in 2K, 200K, Two Million Dollar Group and you don’t coach like me, that’s not a problem. And if you don’t have the same responses as me, that’s not a problem. For me, I tend to be, and I talk about this a lot, I have a very negative leaning mind.

I am always coming up against that. That’s why I created Intentional Thought Creation, because my brain will always come up with a list of a 100 reasons why we’re all going to die, and this is the worst thing ever. And this is going to screw me over. And it’s not a good thing for me. My brain’s always going to do this thought download of that first. And my emotions are very, they’re very high when I’m happy, they’re very low when I’m not. One of my good friends used to say that I should just be wearing a sign that says, ‘this is a dramatization’.

My husband will even tell you. He’s like, “You always know where you stand with Stacey, you know, she’s happy or she’s not. She’s hungry, or she’s tired, or whatever’s happening in her mind. You know very clearly.” And you tend to be very different where it’s like yours, it feels like, I don’t know, from outside looking in like it’s just a very contained person. Your emotions, they don’t go to the high depths or the highs or the lows necessarily. They kind of stay right in that middle ground.

And I think that that’s really important especially for the work that you do because I think that you also help clients find who they are and their presence in the coaching industry because yours is so different than mine. And I do think that we’ve had conversations maybe years ago, but where you’ve had to make peace with that. Make peace with the fact that you aren’t as [crosstalk].

Lindsay: Yeah, on both sides, even sometimes it’s like something wrong with me that I’m not as excited about this thing as other people are.

Stacey: Where is the drama? I don’t find the drama. I am not having it, does that mean there’s something wrong?

Lindsay: Yes. And I do think I used to be a lot more, my emotions used to be a lot. I’ve always internalized them. They have rarely come out on the outside.

Stacey: Yeah, I never experienced them, yeah.

Lindsay: They have always been on the inside. But now my inside matches the outside which I think is the difference because before my inside did not match. And the experience in me was probably very similar. But on the inside I was losing my mind.

Stacey: It’s so interesting because I feel like it always looks on the outside like I might be losing my mind.

Lindsay: It’s the opposite.

Stacey: It’s very big on the outside but on the outside I always feel relatively calm.

Lindsay: This is so true. I love it. Yeah.

Stacey: Everyone’s always like, “Is Stacey okay?” And I’m like, “I mean I feel pretty regulated on the inside.” But just the way that I describe things and how I am is just very, very big. So good, but I wanted to say that. I wanted to bring that up because anyone listening, I think if you’re struggling to feel like, we’ve talked about the slow burn too. And how there’s the hustlers and then there’s the slow burners. And I think it is so important in making money and being a good coach, and honing your craft and then creating your presence in the industry.

I think it is so important to find you within the industry and bring that out, whatever that is. And not make any parts of you that aren’t you, wrong, to own those and to sit in those.

Lindsay: Which is what I teach, that’s a wrap, here we are.

Stacey: I mean just get the transcript, we’ll have some wine after I have my baby, we’ll go through your sales page, we’ll redo it all.

Lindsay: So good.

Stacey: And I do think it’s easy. People say that to me too, they’re watching my stuff and they’re like, the way they’re able to describe it is, “That’s so good, that is what I do.” But it’s just from the outside.

Lindsay: Yes, definitely.

Stacey: If you’re listening, I think we should end here. If you’re listening and you feel like you’re missing any of these things, you’re having lots of thoughts about your skills as a coach, you are unsure and not in a very strong leadership place in your coaching relationship with your clients. If you are in that place where you want to start creating a presence that is not in intellectual property and work that is not just the tools that you got certified in. Or maybe you’ve never gotten certified, but you’ve been coaching for a long time, but you want to feel more confident.

All of the things we’ve talked about, Lindsay can help you with. And I just want to put my stamp of approval on, I’ve said it over and over, but I really do mean it. Every coach that comes to me from you, I really can tell that they’ve done some deep work. I can tell that they’ve worked with you. And I think that shows up not only in their satisfaction with being a coach and how they feel every day, but also in their business and how they feel in their business. And how they are able to – the way they show up in the room. It’s so much more confident than what I sometimes see.

So, I want people to consider your work. I want them to listen to your podcast, join Coach Lab, get in Coaching Masters. I always say the two things you should for sure spend your money on is honing your craft. And there’s your own coaching, honing your craft and your business, those are always the three investments to make. And I think investing in you is a really good decision.

Lindsay: Thanks. I think so too.

Stacey: Love you, mean it. And we recorded these both in the same day. So, we’ve just been having a four hour conversation.

Lindsay: Yeah, and it’s Friday, I’m getting a little snappy. I’m like, “It’s five, I think it’s time for a glass of wine. We’ve got to wrap this up.”

Stacey: I hear Neil rummaging around outside. We have dinner plans. He is like, “Come on, Stacey, wrap it up.” But thank you for dedicating so much time to my audience, I really appreciate it. Will you just tell them again how they can reach out to you and find you if they want to look your work up and get some help?

Lindsay: Yes. And first I want to say, you have been my coach for a very long time and all of this work is also a reflection of what you teach. And I’m so grateful for that. I mean I wouldn’t have even – it wouldn’t be in my awareness, if I didn’t, even though it’s not specifically what you teach. It wouldn’t have been planted in my awareness if I hadn’t learned it over the years of working with you. So, I love you. I can’t wait for the baby. By the time this comes out…

Stacey: Oh my God, by the time this comes out I’m going to have a baby, well, I think, I think one of them comes out.

Lindsay: Well, if you don’t, I mean I’m going to drive down there and see what’s going on. But they can find me, same places as last week, my website lindsaydotzlafcoaching.com. My Instagram @lindsaydotzlaf and my podcast, one of my favorite places to hang out, Mastering Coaching Skills.

Stacey: Such a good podcast. I listen to it as well. It’s very good. Everybody add it to your, whatever you call it, your feed. Alright, thank you so much. I love you, I will talk to you soon.

Lindsay: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Stacey: Bye.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Mastering Coaching Skills. If you want to learn more about my work, come visit me at lindsaydotzlafcoaching.com. That’s Lindsay with an A, D-O-T-Z-L-A-F.com. see you next week.