Hey, this is Lindsay Dotzlaf and you are listening to Mastering Coaching Skills, episode 57.

To really compete in the coaching industry, you have to be great at coaching. That’s why every week, I will be answering your questions, sharing my stories, and offering tips and advice so you can be the best at what you do. Let’s get to work.

Hi, love. I have such a fun episode for you today. I have decided to do something with some of my mastermind students that I think will be really useful for all coaches. I have put together a few panels of different types of coaches and we are having discussions about how to incorporate why coaching skills are important in their businesses.

So for example, today you are going to hear from Sindy Warren and Sarah Klein. They are both business coaches, some type of business coach. And we are going to really dive into why in business strategy is important. And why mindset is equally as important. Why they joined my mastermind. Why coaching skills is something they chose to work on. And we also have a lot of fun, as usual.

And I just want you to know there are more episodes like this coming up, I’m going to be doing this with different types of coaches and really diving into coaching skills within different niches, including general life coaching. Which I know some of you are still having niche drama. And can I just say, don’t.

So I will be talking to all the types of coaches, we will be having kind of small panels, having discussions about how coaching skills come into play in their businesses and how important they are, all the things. I know you’re going to love this, their energy is contagious and you’re going to learn so much from them.

Lindsay: Hello, I am so excited that you guys are here today. This is going to be so fun. I have such a special treat for everyone listening. I’m just going to let you guys introduce yourself.

I’m doing something a little different today, having a small panel with a few business coaches here today. And we’re going to be talking just a little bit about business coaching versus mindset coaching versus all the coaching. And why combining strategy with mindset and combining all the things, like why each piece is important. So I would love for you to just introduce yourself.

Sindy, how about you go first?

Sindy: Hey, Lindsay, I’m so excited to be here. So my name is Sindy Warren and I’m the founder of Blue Tree Coaching. And I am a business and side gig coach. So side gigs are really at the heart of my programming in my coaching. I am surreal side gigger or myself. I’m a lawyer, a yoga teacher, an author, and a coach. And I love walking people through the journey of building and growing a side gig.

And some people end up turning their side gigs into full-time gigs and others don’t. So the journey is really available for anyone.

Lindsay: I love that. And just so everybody knows, we’ll link all the things at the end of the episode. But one thing I love when you applied to be in my mastermind, I remember reading your application, you were like, I’m a lawyer, I’m a this, I’m a yoga teacher, I’m this, like all the things. And then you said your business was Side Gig School, right? Is that what it’s called?

Sindy: Yeah, Side Gig School is my program.

Lindsay: And I thought, how perfect is that? Because clearly you have mastered the art, I think, of having the side gig.

Sindy: And totally not intentionally. It’s just sort of how my career unfolded over the last couple of decades. So it’s really fun to step into that piece of it in a more intentional way.

Lindsay: I love it. All right, Sarah, tell us a little bit about you.

Sarah: Hey, Lindsey. My name is Sarah Klein, for all you listeners, and I am the wantrepreneurship coach. That means that I essentially help people build the business that they told themselves they would. Whether that’s for people who have been loitering on their entrepreneurship dreams for years, or people who have jumped into their entrepreneurship dream and now there’s a giant like wah wah wah, kind of just like constantly in your mind’s voice as you run your business.

I work with folks one on one and yeah, my clients are doing all types of things from starting their first businesses or gaining momentum behind businesses they’ve had for a while. And I even have folks who are scaling to their first 100K months. Yeah, you heard that right, 100K months, and she’s right on track. It’s blowing my mind.

So yeah, I came into this because it’s funny, I never set out to be a coach. It’s like the opposite of most coaches, I set out to help entrepreneurs because I’ve been an entrepreneur myself for the past 11 years. And what I just realized was the missing ingredient that I craved was what coaching provided for me.

And so I just thought, well, I just want to be in integrity and offer entrepreneurs what I think is the missing ingredient for so many of them, which is coaching. So that’s how I came to be doing what I do today.

Lindsay: I love it. And I love that you guys, you kind of do similar things, but you’re very different. And I feel like your clients are probably very different. And it’s like the perfect match to have you both here today.

And just to be clear, Sarah did say one wantrepreneur with a W, which I think is so fun. You guys were both, both of you, when you applied to the mastermind I just remember reading what you do and what you call it. And I was like, yes. It was so clear to me, both of them, it’s like, yep, okay, I completely understand what that is. So I love it.

So I am just curious and, Sarah, you actually already answered this a little bit, but I’m going to ask Sindy and then maybe you might have more to add, if you want to.

I’m just curious, how did you start off coaching? Did you just come right into it as a business coach knowing you wanted to be a business coach? Is that something that developed over time? Just how did that all happen?

Sindy: That’s such a good question. No, I did not come into coaching thinking I wanted to be a business coach at all. Which is funny because I am a businessperson. So as I said, I’m a lawyer, and then when my daughter was a baby, she’s now 18, I started my own human resources consulting business, which I had for like 18 years.

And in that time yoga was my side gig. I got very into philosophy, wrote a book about yoga philosophy. And I’ve just always been sort of interested in the question of what leads to an intentional life? So many of us live on autopilot. I did that in my first marriage, by the way, and at other various points in my life.

And it was really that question and my wanting to answer it for myself and others, and I think this was more the yogi in me than the businessperson that led me to coaching. So I have now been certified through a couple of places. I’m in your mastermind. I’m so excited, I’m doing your mastermind again.

And the business piece of the coaching really evolved, not even for the first year of my coaching, I would say. And what I ended up really discovering was the obstacles people encounter along the business journey are the same obstacles they encounter in their lives. And when I dialed into what do I know? And how do I know it in my own experience, suddenly, my niche if you will, became very clear to me. It almost like revealed itself.

So I would say even, like I said, a year ago I would not have described myself as a business coach. And more and more I’m just sort of stepping into that self-identity. And I love it. And what I love so much about, I work with clients, one on one and also in my group coaching program, is seeing my clients recognize that what trips them up on their entrepreneurial journeys, directly affects the rest of their lives.

So it really all, for me, it comes back to living intentionally and on purpose. And I like the vehicle of business and entrepreneurship to do that.

Lindsay: I love that. You and I have a lot in common. I remember just every time I hear you kind of talk about your journey, I feel like mine was very similar where it was like I actually think I resisted being any type of business coach for years. Until I realized oh, it’s like kind of all the same.

And through the business lens is the way that I love to look at things. And even now I don’t know, I never know how to answer the question am I a business coach because, I focus on a certain part of the business. But I don’t think that I would be considered a business coach like in the traditional make money, grow your business, no sales, no marketing type of coach.

And I just think it’s so fascinating. I love those stories when people tell me like, “I think my niche just happened to me.” Because it’s kind of how I feel about it as well.

Sindy: Let me just add that’s so funny because I also find with a lot of my side gig clients, like the side gig finds them. But just to answer the question, Lindsay, of are you a business coach? I would say yes, and so much more. But through you program and process I’ve gotten a lot clearer on my business.

Lindsay: I love that. Of course, I think that that is the side effect, always. And I’m sure you notice this, just like what you were just saying about how you notice that everything that happens in your life is the same as your business and it just kind of all goes together, right? And I think part of why I do what I do is because I think it is important, but even when we’re coaching someone on business, or when we’re coaching someone on their marriage, or we’re coaching someone on the way they’re eating, or whatever it is, we as coaches it’s such a good skill to have to be able to flip into like, “Oh, and of course, this is showing up in other places.”

So when your clients come to you with things that you’re like, “Oh yeah, I know exactly what’s happening. This is the same thing that’s happening in your business.” Or the same thing that’s happening wherever else it’s happening, because the way we think about things, we usually think about things the same way in all the areas. So such a good point, I love it.

Sarah, you’ve kind of told us a little bit already. Is there anything else that came to your mind when Sindy and I were talking about just how you got into being a business coach?

Sarah: Well, for me, I have always been about business. And when I say always, I mean like since I was a kid. So for me, yeah, like I kind of mentioned earlier, I did not accidentally fall– Business coaching didn’t fall upon me.

I actually started my first business when I was 17. I was an OG Los Angeles blogger back in the early aughts. And oh my god, I can’t even tell you, it was so fun. Imagine being 17 years old and realizing that people will give you in kind of goods and payment for things that you write on the internet. It was thrilling. It was thrilling, and it was the wild wild west.

And then from there I started a vegan hot chocolates brand. And I did that for about a year and a half, two years. And then after that second business I ended up taking a break from entrepreneurship. I went into a tech career. And it’s so funny, I told myself, “I should go into tech so I can learn how to be a real entrepreneur. So I can learn how to make real products.”

Which is a joke, because I had already had two businesses under my belt. And let me tell you, for anybody listening, getting a job does not teach you how to run a business. Don’t do what I did, it doesn’t help.

And I just went through a very painful period between my second business and then what ended up being my third. It lasted about five years in which I kept starting and stopping on myself, or starting and changing and constantly looking for the “right business idea.” Just constantly negotiating with myself if I even should start a business in the first place.

And it felt debilitating, like it got to the point where I just really questioned if I could even trust myself to do what I said I would do. And that is when I actually myself hired a coach. She wasn’t even a specialist in business. But I hired a coach, I didn’t even know what coaching was.

But because I did that I then started my third business, which I transitioned into this one. But I initially started my business as a branding studio for early stage entrepreneurs because I was working as a product designer in tech. And I thought, well, let’s just not think too hard about it. I know how to design, I’ll just do design for other people with my own studio.

And what I noticed was that people were coming to me for– Early stage entrepreneurs, they wanted to get a beautiful brand because they wanted to show up perfect. And they thought that showing up perfect and showing up “legit” would be the thing that would start their business. And I was helping people look great. But, of course, you don’t get customers from a perfect brand.

Any of you thinking that you do, you don’t. Hear us now, you do not. So that is also another thing that really pushed me into the coaching direction specifically. But yeah, I’ve always been all things business. I also have my own real estate stuff going on here in Austin, Texas as well. I’ve always seen creating money and creating value as something truly creative and fun and playful. So yeah, I’ve always been about that. But coaching came about as a necessity for me.

Lindsay: That’s so good. I love what you just said because I can’t tell you how many coaches I’ve worked with, especially when I was doing one on one coaching, how many coaches I worked with who would come to me who had made hardly any money, but they’d spent way more than what they made on the branding on the website.

And I was always like, “Oh no. Okay. Well, the bad news is,” and I wouldn’t necessarily tell them this, but I always thought the bad news is you’re probably never going to use this. But that’s okay, I’m sure you learned a lot designing it all, like picking it all.

And I would be curious, this is total tangent, but in my experience my branding seems to evolve with kind of who I am as a person, what I like in the moment, what I whatever. And so I remember building my very first website and a year or two later looking back like, “This is terrible. This doesn’t even look like me. I hate these colors.” I wanted to change all of it. And I still experience that in my business. I’m curious what your thoughts are.

Sarah: Oh my God, it’s so funny you say that because literally my email going out to my audience next week is exactly on that. It’s basically all about don’t sweat your brand right now. Don’t plan your brand right now. Because what is a brand? It’s not a look.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Sarah:  A brand is a relationship and you’re going to create a great relationship with your customers when you cultivate a great relationship with yourself. And it’s so true, when I first started Brand Cake as a branding agency, I was like, “Okay, my look is going to be candy coated colors. I’m going to be fun.” And that’s an aesthetic, that’s a look. And people messaged me saying, “I love your branding.” I guess it “worked.” I got clients, I signed clients.

But a look is not the foundation of the business. It’s really that relationship with your customers. So I totally agree with you, Lindsay, the more you let yourself show in service of helping your clients, the more compelling your brand is going to be, I think.

Lindsay: Yes. What do you think, Sindy? Do you experience this as well with your clients?

Sindy: 100%. I love this conversation. I see this show up in my group coaching programs, Side Gig School, more than I do with my full blown entrepreneurs. But I see people being like, “It’s got to be perfect. Who’s the web designer? What’s my tagline? What do I name the business?” And it’s like, “No, no, no. Decide what you’re offering and then go offer it.” It’s so simple.

And this is something that we work on hard in the mastermind. It’s like how can it just be simple? It’s also something you talk about on the podcast a lot. And I feel like that message is so important for business owners.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Sindy: So I totally agree. And I love how you said, Sarah, that your brand is not a look. It’s a relationship. It’s what you’re offering. It’s how you’re serving. It’s how you’re showing up. That is amazing.

Lindsay: Yes. And I bet for sure, if we just went out and polled a bunch of people and we asked them, how would you describe a brand? That’s probably where most people would start is, it’s like the color and your logo and the look of it. And maybe your website and what it looks like and whatever, your pictures and all of that.

And really, none of that is the stuff that matters. And what I noticed a lot of coaches doing or a lot of entrepreneurs doing when I was doing one on one coaching and talking about this kind of thing, it felt like it was a buffer for a lot of people. It’s like but it’s so fun. And it makes you feel professional and like you’re doing it, and like you know what you’re doing. And it would really become a buffer of like, “Oh, I made a new logo this week.” And I was like, “What? Why? What are you doing? What is happening?”

So I love that we just like went down that. And I feel like a lot of people right now might feel a little called out. And listen, it’s okay.

Sindy: It’s so funny. And I sort of consider myself like a productivity addict. And I think it can be like focusing on everything you guys just described is like faux productivity. Because you get the dopamine hit, you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I’m getting so much done.” And really, you’re not advancing your business.

Lindsay: Yes. And I think too, if you love it, if you’re like, “No, but I really want my brand to look good, my whatever, my images to look good.” Fine. But those are the things you do in the evening while you’re watching TV like get on Canva design it yourself, whatever. If you love that, if you’re into the aesthetics of all of it there’s nothing wrong with it. It just isn’t necessarily where you want to be spending daytime work hours just buffering with making everything look beautiful.

Sarah: Yes, that’s funny. I was actually just on a guest speaker panel the other day where we were talking about websites. And we were debating if you think having a website will make you feel better should you do it? And we talked about that in our mastermind as well the other day.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Sarah: And like what I would say to that is yes, but time box it. Because I’ve also noticed with a lot of my clients, with a lot of entrepreneurs that craving, that feeling of not good enough, and oh, I need to perfect something to be good enough, it’s a habit. And just because you make a website does not mean that habitual thinking is going to go away.

So for me, I’m like, listen, it’s going to be a better use of your time to address the habit head on in your thinking and in your mindset, rather than, as Lindsay you said, like buffer. Because it’s going to be the website today, it’s going to be the brand today. And then in three months, I mean, let’s be real, it’s going to be the website and brand again.

Lindsay: Yes.

Sarah: Or it will be something else. It’ll be your Instagram, it’ll be whatever else you’re dreaming up.

Lindsay: Yeah, we have just gone down this road now. And there are exceptions, right? Like if you are selling a physical product, then you might need a website, or a storefront, or an Instagram, or somewhere where you are selling it. But it still comes back to what you think of the things that are important, just probably aren’t the things that aren’t important, if you’re not making money yet, right? It’s just more about just go out there and do it, find the people, tell them what you’re doing, and let them pay you for it. No one cares about your logo.

Okay, so let’s move on from this just a little bit. Although it really does tie into this, I think. One thing I hear a lot from business coaches, especially business coaches who maybe aren’t necessarily trained in mindset coaching or haven’t been certified in a specific mindset coaching technique. I hear a lot like, “Okay, yeah, that’s cute. But what about the strategies?”  You have to have good strategies if you are teaching your clients to make money. What are your thoughts about that?

Sarah: I have thoughts on this. Okay, because that totally was me, you guys, for like the first 10 years of my– I’m on year 11 of being an entrepreneur, that was me for 10 years.

So listen, you think that a strategy is going to be the secret to your success. The real secret to your success is going to be not quitting. Not quitting on your business, not quitting on the strategy that you pick to go shift to another strategy because it seems better and like it’s more likely to work over there.

That is the real game of entrepreneurship. That is the real long game of entrepreneurship. Every single successful business owner that you see out there, you may admire the marketing strategy you see very visibly right now that they’re employing. But you got to know that that strategy only works because they didn’t stop implementing and iterating on it for probably a long time. They gave themselves a time to stick with it and be bad at it and to keep going to get better.

And that is what, to me, the number one difference between a wantrepreneur and an entrepreneur. It’s not the quality of strategy that you pick, because really any strategy can work.

And also for all of you guys listening, who want to improve your business, you already know the strategies, okay? Because you’ve been scrolling Instagram, like most of us do, for hours at a time every day. Those strategies that people are telling you for free, that’s it.

That is it. That’s also what you’re going to learn in a paid program or course. The real thing that’s going to make them work is whether or not you stick with it, don’t quit, and give it time to implement. And that is at the mindset level.

Lindsay: What do you think, Sindy? I love it. First of all, I’m just like nodding and nodding and agreeing. And if you guys, I know you can’t see me on the podcast, but that is what is happening over here. Because yes, a million percent.

Sindy: So I’m going to say yes and. I actually think strategy is important and when people are coming to me as a coach, I’ll just speak for myself, me as a coach, they really don’t know how. And they do need some hand holding and some tips and things to try. And then I think, Sarah, this is where we are 100% on the same page, the mindset is what will carry you forward and make or break you.

So I see people all the time have an idea and not actually go from contemplation into creation, or give up too easily, quit on themselves, quit on the business. Shift gears too quickly, like strategy hopping, I see that. Like they were playing the game of Frogger which is probably not something any of your listeners remember what that video game is. It’s 1980s, my friends. You remember Lindsay?

Lindsay: Listen, I played Frogger, it was the first video game I ever played, on my grandpa’s Mac. I called him Poppy, Poppy’s Mac. It was like a little square that he would pull it out and put it on his kitchen table. And that was all I knew how to do on it, was play Frogger. So I don’t definitely remember Frogger.

Sindy: Amazing, that makes me love you even more.

Lindsay: It’s also an app now by the way, and my kids play it. And I’m like, “You don’t even know. You don’t even know about Frogger.” This Frogger is ridiculous. You don’t even know about hitting the arrow keys to just cross the street.

Sindy: Well, now I know what I’m doing this evening, I’m going to check out the new and improved 2021 version of Frogger. So I do think people pivot too quickly and too often. And then sometimes I think I see people do the opposite, they just stick with a strategy that has been proven again and again doesn’t work.

So I really think business should be approached, this is the way I approach it for myself and my clients, it’s both. Yes, you need good strategies, and you need to be smart about where you’re investing your money. Like Sarah said, don’t pay for a paid program if you can get the exact same content for free.

But I also think the mindset is what sets apart people who succeed and people who don’t. And I think of myself as such an example of this in my first business, my HR consulting business. I was at the stage of my life where I wanted to be home with my daughter a lot. I was very unintentional about growing the business.

I didn’t think in terms of strategy, I let it unfold. And it took a good probably close to a decade before it was a six figure business. And it just sort of happened by happenstance.

The way I approach my business now, obviously now, I’m all about mindset. But I’ve learned so much about strategy, and growth, and entrepreneurship. And I do really enjoy sharing that with my clients too.

Lindsay: I love that. And really, what I heard you both say is the same thing, right? You just kind of approached it from a different angle. And I agree completely. And I think that kind of the way I talk about it is strategy, it doesn’t matter, but it does. It’s like it doesn’t matter which one you pick, but you need to have one. When it comes to something like building a business, which is the lens that we’re looking through right now.

And I agree with you. I remember I had a business before, I don’t know if I’ve ever said this on my podcast before. And I don’t know if you guys know this, but I used to sew dinosaur capes and sell them on Etsy. And I had no strategy. My strategy was stay up until four in the morning sewing as much as I can because I was getting so many orders. It was just like the strategy was like just keep up.

And I didn’t have a coach at the time. And wow, did I need one. Because I was also making tons of money, but making no money, right? Like I was generating lots of money and spending all of it on materials and probably my health and all the things.

And so I do think strategy is important, like finding some type of strategy in a business. And also, I think one thing that maybe I don’t think either of you said this, but one thing I’ve talked about, I know I’ve talked about it in the mastermind is finding the strategy that you will love to do.

So for me, for example, I have a colleague that everyday she’s trying to get me to do reels on Instagram. Listen, if I went to a business coach and they were like, “This is how you build your business. You have to do reels every day.” I’d be like, “Okay, I’m out. I hate this strategy.” It would be like I would be fighting against it every day, it would just not be my thing.

But I know that there are so many people that do that, and they love it. So there’s nothing wrong with it. And obviously, that’s not like a full strategy. But if that was a piece of what a business coach was telling me to do, that just wouldn’t be for me. What are your thoughts about that? Not reels, but just finding the strategy, like picking the one that’s like I really resonate with this method?

Sarah: Yeah, I think what I hear you say and I totally agree with is like, don’t exhaust yourself with the drama around your strategy. Don’t exhaust your juiciest brainpower with a decision of which one to pick, forcing yourself to do something that you’re feeling a lot of resistance to.

Because all that juicy brain power and energy is way better spent creating actual helpful things. I’m speaking specifically to coaches, this is a coaching podcast, like creating actual helpful things to say and teach in your marketing.

So yeah, exactly what you said, Lindsay. It’s like if you don’t like reels, if your body just clams up at the thought of like doing a little dance routine and captioning it to like trending TikTok audio, first of all, I don’t blame you. And second of all, yeah, don’t spend all of your energy and attention trying to force yourself into doing that and to feel good about it.

When instead say if you’re a Lindsay, you could be thinking about okay, what do I want to say about how to be a good coach? How do I want to teach people about coaching today? Because that is what is actually going to create effective marketing for you, not the strategy itself.

Lindsay: Yeah, especially for coaches. One thing I see them do is then use coaching kind of against themselves, right? They’ll pick a strategy that they don’t really resonate with or don’t love, even if it’s maybe someone has told them– I just want to be very clear before I say this, but nothing I say is like don’t do this strategy, right? It’s just an example of something, they all work.

But let’s say someone has told you the way to build your business is to have paid ads, right? Like you have to have paid ads, you have to have funnels, all the things. And you don’t necessarily have cash just saved up for ads, right?

Because ads do not create immediate results. Anyone that has tried them probably knows this. And there’s like a reserve of cash that you need to have to be able to really pay for the ads and not let it affect your mindset of like, I’m running out of money.

And I think that there’s a place there where it’s like I see coaches, for example, decide, “Oh, I’m going to do whatever this coach tells me, I’m going to go all in because I can coach myself on this.” Or I can get coaching on my thoughts about it. About why it’s not working or about money, about whatever it is, I can coach myself.

And it almost can skirt on this like I can fix it. I can just ignore the things that feel really bad about this by just coaching myself and it’ll be fine. When instead, you could spend that coaching energy just coaching yourself on things that are much more useful, doing things that you really love to do. What are your thoughts, Sindy?

Sindy: I totally agree. I mean, I think it’s got to be fun. Otherwise, what is the point? So two things that I think should guide business growth are simplicity and fun.

Having said that, sometimes it’s going to be really complicated and hard. And that’s okay. But if we sort of have our entree of our entrepreneurship be fun, it’s going to be easier to sustain it. And I do think consistency, whatever your strategy is, is really important. Whatever you pick, just to keep showing up. And like you said, could you coach yourself to do reels everyday if you hate reels? Yeah, you probably could. You got a powerful brain. But is that the best use of that powerful brain?

Lindsay: Probably not, not for me.

Sindy: Me neither.

Lindsay: It doesn’t mean I’m never do reels. You guys, one day you’re going to be like, “Did you see Lindsay’s reel? Lindsay is doing reels, what’s happening?” But that was just a silly example to say find the thing that you’re like, “Yeah, this is where I want to spend my time and energy.” And think of it as how can this be fun, just like Sindy said.

With the caveat of it might still sometimes feel really hard. You just don’t want it to be awful and hard. Don’t pick the thing that feels awful to you. And it might be hard because just being an entrepreneur is hard sometimes.

So for each of you, I’m curious, so you’re both in my mastermind, Coaching Masters, we kind of already mentioned that. What made you, as business coaches, what made you think that focusing on your coaching skill was the place you wanted to spend time?

Sindy: So I think whatever you’re doing with your business, you do want to be the best you can be. And that’s sort of like my approach to life. I’m not good at all the things, but the things that I’m really passionate about, I want to be my best. And I love coaching. I think about coaching, I read about coaching, I talk about coaching. And so when I saw an opportunity to get better at coaching it was like enough said, I am in.

Lindsay: I love that. How about you, Sarah?

Sarah: Yeah. So, for me, I consider coaching to be a skill that is separate from business. That’s why there are coaches who don’t coach on business. There are weight loss coaches, and leadership coaches, and general life coaches, and all types of coaches, y’all. I’ve met so many coaches over the past year doing all types of things you would not even– I mean, maybe you do know because you might be one of them.

But the point is coaching is a skill that is separate from business. And I knew that I wanted to be the best I could possibly be at that specific skill set. Because the difference between a business coach and a business consultant is a business consultant will just tell you what to do.

Versus a business coach, because they can coach and they have the skill set of coaching can help you find what to do. Can help you make your own decisions clearly and cleanly and measure if they are serving you or not.  And that’s very different than just telling somebody what to do.

And it’s also, you know that expression you can give a man a fish or you can teach them how to fish. To me coaching is the equivalent of teaching somebody how to fish for the rest of their life. So that’s why, for me, I was like, “Yeah, this is the most important skill set that I want to– I just want to make sure I’m focused and spending time on improving it and making sure it’s fantastic.

Lindsay: I love it. So something that I hear coaches say all the time, listen, anyone that’s listening, if you’re like, “Oh, no, this is me.” I just want you to be open to hearing what Sindy and Sarah, how they’re going to answer this. And I don’t know, I haven’t asked them this, but I’m guessing that their opinion is very similar to mine.

I hear coaches say this a lot, I should probably just be a business coach because that’s who makes money. Now, what’s funny is I did a poll in the mastermind, in our mastermind, to ask kind of like what category all of you would consider yourself right? Like a business coach, a relationship coach, a general life coach, there were a bunch of options.

And this is the first time, now I don’t usually do that poll. But this is the first time that I’ve had many business coaches in the mastermind. I usually just have all different kinds of coaches, and we do this time too. But there just happens to be, I think, maybe six of you that are business coaches. and what are your thoughts about that? When you think–

And there’s nothing wrong with coaches coaching coaches, at all? Obviously, I do it. I don’t know if you guys coach coaches or not. There’s nothing wrong with that at all. But where I see it just really hold people back is when they’re thinking this is the only path. This is the only path that people are going to pay me for my coaching. What do you think?

Sindy: Yeah, I think that’s a lie. It is not true that going into business coaching is the way or the easiest way to make money. I really think the best way to succeed, however you define success as a coach, is to find what you’re really excited about and good at, and what problems you’ve solved in your own lives, and then go do that for other people. To me, that’s the highest level of service.

And I think you can make money or not make money doing anything. But if you show up and you do it well, and like Sarah was saying, you don’t give up on yourself and you don’t give up on the process and your strategies, that’s so much more important than your niche.

I mean, I think one of the coaching certifications I was in, my husband Dan and I joked about this. Some of the advice was get as specific as possible. And we were joking like, “Okay, so I’m going to go be a coach for stressed out lawyers who overeat on Tuesdays at 7pm.” And we were like, “Yeah, that’s silly. Just go find what you love, and then do that.”

Lindsay: So good, I love that. What do you think Sarah?

Sarah: Yeah. First of all, I love that you bring this up because I hear this a lot too. And I do coach other coaches. My clients, they’re all different types of entrepreneurs. Some are product based, some are service based non-coaches, and some are coaches.

I think when people say like, “Well, I should just be a business coach, because that’s the only type of coach that makes money.” I would definitely question why you think that’s true. Because I think that the underlying assumption there is that people will only pay you money if you can help them make money.

People place a monetary return as the most important return that you could possibly have. And if that’s you, and deep down what I’m saying is landing with you, just be aware if that’s happening. This is a chance for you to really like break that– I encourage you to question that belief for yourself.

And I definitely had to do this too, at one point in my coaching career, because, listen, I’m a business coach. But actually, for the people I work with the biggest return on investment is not a monetary one. It’s actually an emotional one. It’s actually a mental health one, which is all about loving yourself and not giving up all the way through.

During my five year, you know, that period I was describing to you all earlier, like my five year super painful period of starting and stopping and swirling on different businesses that I could start as my third business, I was already working in tech. I did not need to make more money. I didn’t care about making more money, I cared about keeping a promise to myself. And that has nothing to do with finances.

So all of this is to say money is not the most important return on investment for most of us out there if we really look at it critically. And as long as you can identify a result that, just like Sindy said, you have created in your own life that you think is super valuable and priceless, people will pay for that. Because the people who want to work with you are going to think that that’s priceless too.

Lindsay: Yes, I just got chills listening to you say that. I think that that is really the– What both of you said, it was so similar just in your own way. And I think that that, really at the heart of it is how I feel about it too.

I see so many coaches who come into my mastermind who think that business coaching is the only way for them because it’s the way that people make money. And what we kind of end up usually finding after some unpacking is that they haven’t really made much money. And now they’re sitting in this place where they are just creating so much drama for themselves.

Because coaching someone on something that you haven’t done yourself, it’s definitely possible. But if that’s the only thing that you’re focused on, like if that’s all you’re talking about all the time in your marketing and wherever it is you’re talking about it, in the back of your head you’re just thinking, “Yeah, wish I could do this for myself.” Or I wish it would work for me, or whatever it is. Just notice that is such an unnecessary kind of burden to put on your business.

And I think really looking through that lens of– One question I ask myself is what do I just want to talk about all the time? For me, that’s how I got to kind of where I am now. It was so clear to me that it wasn’t money, it wasn’t making money. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, I love talking about money. It just wasn’t what I wanted to think about and kind of put into my marketing.

But when I thought about listen, I could talk about coaching for hours every day and feel so just thrilled about it. That’s when I knew, like, oh, is that a thing? Can I just coach people on that? And it’s working, so it turns out I think I can.

Okay, I’ve asked you all of my questions. What have I left out? What do you want to add in? Is there anything that came up for you in anything that we’ve been talking about that you are like, the people need to hear this?

Sindy: I think there are so many things, but one thing that as you were speaking just popped up into my head, and again I think this goes to the what have you solved for yourself, or what do you really care about for what could you talk about for 10 hours straight and not bore yourself to tears?

As I think about where I’ve landed with side gigs, for me, yeah, it’s about the money. But more than that, it’s about the personal and professional freedom that comes from creating something out of nothing that is yours. And obviously, that applies to entrepreneurs at every level.

And coming from my background as an employment lawyer for almost two decades, I really love diving into creating and defining your own workplace. Like what does that word even mean? Where do you work? How do you work? When do you work? What is the work? What feeds you about the work? And that has so informed where I am now as a coach. And I came to this through trial and error. Like I said before, it just doesn’t happen overnight.

So I do think for coaches, who are sort of at that phase of like, what do I want to do with this? You’re obviously drawn to personal development, if you’re into coaching. And that means so many different things and shows up in so many different areas. I think it’s just important to think like sort of the world’s is your oyster when it comes to what you want to do and how you want to do it.

And then cultivating the belief in yourself. Like selling yourself on yourself before you go sell yourself on anyone else is the mindset work that I think is at the heart of what we’re talking about today. So those two things just jumped up at me as you were talking.

Lindsay: I love it. What about you, Sarah, do you have anything to add?

Sarah: I’ll share something for all of you who are already business coaches out there who are thinking of working with Lindsay. My favorite lesson to date, and there’s many that are close ties. But one of my favorite lessons that I’ve learned in Coaching Masters that I think every single business coach needs to take with them as well, is how important creating awareness is for your clients.

Not jumping into your first session or your first lesson with a client and immediately telling them a whole new way of how to do something. Because every person has a mental model in their brain that already exists. And when you just go in and tell people what to do, and this probably resonates with you.

You’re going to tell somebody what to do and then they’re not going to do it and then you’re going to spend all this time going, “Oh my God, why are they not doing what I’m telling them?” And then you’re just going to kind of like close your eyes and hope that it’s going to click one of these days without really investigating, like what is their existing mental model? What are they currently thinking? What are they currently doing and why? And helping your client be aware of that for themselves.

It’s not enough just for you as the coach to be aware of that, like the client needs to be aware of that themselves. So don’t skip that part. I know that it feels way more sexy to jump into all those business strategies that I know you’re so good at, and to get into all the sexy goals that entrepreneurs love to focus on. But your clients need to be aware of how they got to where they are today.

And it’s our job as coaches to show and model that it’s okay to become aware of that and not judge yourself. That’s another really important thing. I think a lot of people like to skip past that awareness piece because they’re ashamed of where they are right now. But it’s our job as coaches to model that you don’t have to be ashamed of evaluating where you’re at because that’s going to help you make the biggest and best progress.

Lindsay: I am obsessed with that. I love that you brought that up. And I was actually just thinking about this the other day because, of course, I just sit around spending time thinking about stuff like creating awareness for clients.

And it’s something that I talk about a lot in the mastermind and about how a lot of coaches just love to like, “Okay, let’s just jump in and get to the goal and set the goal.” And just get there as fast as possible. And that’s great, but so often we skip the part where it’s like, but wait, come back, where are we now? And what’s hiding under here? What’s hiding under the surface that’s going to maybe present some obstacles as you’re moving forward?

And I’ve noticed, and I don’t know if this is true or not, this is not an official study. I don’t have the stats or the numbers, it just is something I’ve noticed that especially goals that have a very clear number, like maybe weight or money, or something that’s very measurable, the coaches tend to sometimes do that a little more because it is so easy to measure it and it’s so easy to see, like, is it working? Is it not working?

Okay, let’s just keep moving forward, right? Like, let’s just keep going, we’ll get there someday. If we just keep going, you’re going to make money, you’re going to lose the weight. And sometimes I think, with the goals that have a more clear number to them, it’s can be easier to create strategies or processes for them.

Because, okay, if you cut out sugar, here’s what’s going to happen. And then if you add in intermittent fasting– I’m totally making this up, I’ve never been a weight loss coach. But it’s like, here are the things and if you just do them you’re probably going to get there, right?

And what I just notice is that the coaches who are, who sell that kind of results, sometimes are can totally be in the pool with their clients of like, “Yes, let’s just get there as fast as possible.” And sometimes that works, which is the tricky part because you can do things sometimes using willpower, or using just like I’m just going to power through.

But I love to bring it back to, Sarah, what you said earlier about, like creating– This isn’t how you said it. Something like creating the lasting change, like the concept of like teaching someone to giving them a fish versus teaching them to fish. And I think that when the coach gets as attached to that number as the client does, it can be sometimes a little problematic because it’s like, “Okay, let’s just get there as fast as possible.”

What do you think about that? Do you have anything to add? Or is that just like, Yep, that’s true.

Sarah: I mean, that’s pretty much a mic drop. So I also want to add I think so much of the prize, if you will, is the journey itself. And when we’re invested in rushing through that as either the coach or the client, we’re missing that and not enabling our clients to have that.

So that sort of goes back to what I was saying at the beginning of our time together about being intentional in finding growth in all phases of the journey. And that’s something that those of us who coach specifically someone hired us for a result, I think we have to sort of reorient to that, and also reorient our clients to that. The goal is not just the goal for its own sake. Why do we even set goals in the first place so much about growth, however we define growth for ourselves or our businesses.

So I think that’s a hard thing to do as a coach, and I think it’s a really important thing to do as a coach.

Lindsay: Yes, totally agree. I have recently been rereading Atomic Habits,  you know the author, I can’t think of his name.

Sarah: Yeah, James clear.

Lindsay: James Clear, yes. So good. So I was already rereading it and then he was just interviewed on Brene Brown’s podcast. And I love that book and I love just the concepts that he teaches. But I think so much of what he talks about is kind of what you just said, where it’s like most people we set goals, and our clients totally do this. Where we set goals and they’re so big and it’s like this giant goal.

But really the way we get there is the tiny things every day. Like the tiny habits, the tiny like becoming the person. How do I just become the healthy person today? What decision would that person make in this moment? Just the tiny things each day and how they add up to create the overall results.

And since I’ve been rereading it I’ve just been thinking about that so much and how much that obviously just plays into coaching. Where it’s like our clients might set huge goals. And our job is to say like, “Okay, where are we starting? And let’s just chip away at it. What’s the one thing you can do today? What’s the one thing you want to believe about yourself today? Or who’s the person you want to be today or the person you’re becoming?”

And it takes some patience as a coach to do that. But in the end, I really do think that creates quicker results, which just doesn’t make sense sometimes when you think about it. But it really is how it works, I think.

All right, friends, thank you so much. This was so fun. I’m sure that people find it super helpful. Thank you for sharing everything that you did. And Sindy, where can people find you if they’re curious about what you do or what Side Gig School is? Where can they find you?

Sindy: Yeah, so my website is www.bluetree-coaching.com. And I’m on Instagram at bluetree_coaching.

Lindsay: Can you just tell us why blue tree? I’ve never asked you that, I’m just so curious.

Sindy: This is an outgrowth of the yogi side of me.

Lindsay: Okay.

Sindy: And so a tree is– I’m obsessed with the imagery of trees. They’re rooted, they’re grounded, they’re sturdy. And blue to me represents the expansiveness and possibility of the sky.

Lindsay: So good. I knew there had to be a story behind it, I was just curious. Thank you for sharing. Sarah, where can they find you?

Sarah: Yeah, I am findable on Instagram at Brandcake.biz. I won’t spell it because I’m sure Lindsay will have it in the show notes. But yeah, brandcake.biz on Instagram. I also have a podcast called Start Your Business with Sarah Klein. It’s viewable on Spotify and it will be on Apple soon. Got that Apple technical difficulties. But it’s on my link and bio on Instagram.

You can sign up for emails through my link and bio as well. Yeah, just keep up with me there. I got some good stuff cooking for you for 2022. So yeah, hope to see you guys all in the cyberverse.

Lindsay: I love it. Okay, tell us quickly why Brandcake.

Sarah: Oh, because you know what I did when I first started that branding studio before I knew anything about coaching? I spent like two weeks shvitzing about the name of my business. And I got it down to two contenders. Oh my god, what was it? It was like Brand Cake and brand book and I just asked my sister, my friends, everybody I knew. I was like, “Which name? Which name?” And guess what y’all, it does not matter.

But I chose Brand Cake because I like cake at the end of the day. Yeah, it’s super random. But the lesson in that is pick a name, don’t worry about it and move on.

Lindsay: Yes. So good. And Sindy, you have a podcast as well. Right? Do you want to tell them when it’s called?

Sindy: I do. It’s called Side Gig School and it’s on all the platforms right now.

Lindsay: Perfect. And yes, I will link all of the things, you can go to my website, go to the show notes and you will have all of the links to find Sarah or Sindy. Thank you, guys, so much for being here today. It was so fun.

Sarah: Bye.

Sindy: Thanks, Lindsay.

Thank you so much for listening today. I hope you loved the truth bombs that they dropped on the podcast. So fun. And if you want to find either of them, as I said before, you can go to the show notes on my website, lindsaydotzlafcoaching.com, we will have all their information linked up. I’m so grateful you are here today. I’ll see you next week, bye.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Mastering Coaching Skills. If you want to learn more about my work, come visit me at lindsaydotzlafcoaching.com. That’s Lindsay with an A, D-O-T-Z-L-A-F.com. see you next week.