Hi, this is Lindsay Dotzlaf and you are listening to Mastering Coaching Skills, episode 56.

To really compete in the coaching industry, you have to be great at coaching. That’s why every week, I will be answering your questions, sharing my stories, and offering tips and advice so you can be the best at what you do. Let’s get to work.

Today I’m having such a fun conversation with my client, and now my friend. Doro is what I now call her, but her name is Dorothy Johnson and you are going to love her. But what I love about this so much is that she gives so many important nuggets about being a coach, about believing you’re amazing at what you do. And I don’t care what kind of coach you are, you are going to get a lot out of this podcast, I promise.

She talks about what it’s like to believe you’re not great at what you do or you’re not the best and kind of like becoming obsessed with the idea of being the best, even when you’re already making a lot of money, you’re already established and doing really well in your business, which she is.

She opens up, and she’s so vulnerable, which I love, and she really shares with us the thoughts she was having about herself as a coach and about herself in her business that were holding her back.

We also talk a lot about what it looks like if you’re the type of coach or have the type of personality where you like to really give your clients every single nugget that you’ve ever learned, every single tool, every single strategy. And what it looks like to kind of pare that down a little bit and make things a little more simple while still creating amazing results for your clients.

Of course, we talk about way more than that, we also have a lot of fun and I hope you enjoy this conversation.

Lindsay: Hello, I am so glad you are here today.

Dorothy: Hello, hello. I am super pumped to be here with you.

Lindsay: Introduce yourself.

Dorothy: My name is Dorothy, I go by Breakup Coach Dorothy. I help people get over their ex.

Lindsay: Hold on, just pause. Is that what your friends call you?

Dorothy: No.

Lindsay: Okay, I was just curious. You said I go by it like it was just your nickname, but it’s longer than your regular name so I thought that’s commitment.

Dorothy: Yeah, my nickname is– I mean I have lots, but Dee, Doro, Dorth.

Lindsay: Doro, love it. How did I not know this? I’m never calling you Dorothy again. Okay, I’m sorry, continue.  I just interrupted you, keep going.

Dorothy: No, you’re totally fine. So I help humans heal their heart so that they can go on to help the world in their own unique way. My signature program is called Get Over Your Ex in Three Months or Less. So I help people get over their ex in this new, amazing, impactful way that has nothing to do with time, which I’m totally obsesses with.

Lindsay: I love it. I just love, first of all, I’m just going to like plug you. I love you, I love everything you do. You’re so fun. You are the cutest, which I don’t know if you think that’s a compliment or not but I think it is. And I’m just so grateful you’re here.

Dorothy: Thank you, I appreciate you so, so much. Thank you for the kind words.

Lindsay: This is just going to be a love fest, it’s going to be great.

Dorothy: I know, we’re just both obsessed with each other, that’s all.

Lindsay: That’s right. So you are in my mastermind and I wanted to have you on because a couple things that you worked on, I just think– First of all, they’re a little bit unique to where you are because you make quite a bit of money in your business, so you came in with very specific goals of what you wanted to work on and I just think they’re going to be helpful for everyone listening no matter what kind of coach they are.

Dorothy: I’m so ready. Let’s dive in.

Lindsay: Tell me about being the best breakup coach.

Dorothy: All right, so I came to Lindsay and I was like, “Lindsey, I need to be the best. When I say I want to be the best breakup coach, I want to be sure and certain that I’m doing it the best, I have the best tools, I am the best.

When people think about me or when they think about a breakup– Maybe not me, when they think about a breakup or they’re trying to heal from heartbreak,” I’m like, “I want them to immediately go to you’ve got to hear about Breakup Coach Dorothy. And I want to be the best of the best.”

And it was like this over dramatic thing in my head. It really came up in a couple of other programs that I was in. I found myself comparing and then despairing. And I found myself, I’m not a competitive person. I’m like the least competitive person. When I think about the sports that I did, I didn’t do anything with balls. Forget balls, don’t even.

Lindsay: But can we just laugh a little bit because you’re like a relationship and breakup coach. I don’t know why but that, I mean, inappropriate, but it just really made me laugh. No balls, got it.

Dorothy: So I was in like dance or swimming, things that aren’t seen as the most competitive. And when you put me in a competitive like pressure filled environment, I usually just like compound inside of myself.

So it was very interesting to me that I was coming up against this thing of needing to be the best. And it really came from a place of, I mean, it came from the place of I wanted to make sure that I was serving my clients at the highest level. But it also came from this place of like proving and significance.

I wanted to feel significant. I wanted to feel proud, and successful, and important. And to me, I thought that once other people saw me as the best, then I could see myself as the best. And I could feel proud, and I could feel successful, and I could feel important, and I could feel significant.

And even being a coach, this isn’t something that was like when I first started coaching or when I first started thought work. I knew that external validation wasn’t real. I knew that my internal beliefs needed to be stronger than my external observations.

But I knew this deep down, but yet I still was struggling with this. And I still came up to it. And it was really starting to influence a couple of things. It started to influence how I showed up in other programs with other coaches. Not taking advantage of peer support or not taking advantage of some of the tools because I didn’t want to be like copying someone or something.

I also saw it show up in my launches. Oh my gosh, yeah. I think you were even in, when I did my first launch of 2021 and I had doubled my prices. I had all kinds of drama. And I think that was before $2 Million Dollar Group. So you were still in 200K group with that.

And so I think you saw me go through that. But it was like, oh my gosh, how can I charge this much if I don’t know that I’m the best coach? How can I charge this price if I don’t know that I’m the best and I can’t prove that I’m the best?

And so going into your program, that was my number one goal, was to walk away from this program knowing that I was the best breakup coach, inside out and backwards. And feeling all of those emotions that came with being the best.

And yeah, that was a whole journey. One of the very first things that Lindsay has you do in Coaching Masters, you can tell me if I’m not allowed to share this, but–

Lindsay: It’s all secret. No, they can’t know anything, they just have to come in and then just we’ll see what happens. No, you can share anything.

Dorothy: Yeah, so this was my one of my most favorite parts and it influenced what I do with my Brave Hearts. So my clients, I call them Brave Hearts, so if you hear me use that term, it’s because they’re my clients.

So Lindsey has you identify your goals for the program. And she asked this very specific question that was so important for me to hear and to think about and to identify. She asked this question of how do you know you’ve achieved your goal? How will you know you’ve arrived?

Lost my shit, lost it. As soon as she asked me that I was like, “I don’t know. How do I know? Can we do a coach off?”

Lindsay: People tell me, there’s an award.

Dorothy: Yeah, I was like, “I need an award. Or maybe we do a coach off.” I was like, “Is there a way that I could schedule all of the breakup and heartbreak coaches on one call and we can do a coach off and someone can rate us? And then maybe I would know.

I need people to like rave about me. Zero negative reviews on my podcast. I have 100%, what is it, renewal rate or something. Just all these other external things I thought would make me know that I was the best breakup coach.

But her asking that question was not only so important for me to figure out how I would know if I was the best breakup coach. A really cool thing that came from that was I started applying this to my clients. And so it was really fun to like track how do you know if you’re over your ex? What does that mean for you? And we create those goals.

And it took Stacey Boehman’s 100% results to a whole nother level where I could track that I was definitely 100% getting my clients 100% results. Because we could say at the beginning, “This is how you’ll know you arrived.” And at the end they’ve arrived.

And throughout the entire process it was so clear as to what their problem was and how we could address it and how we could fix it. Which then was giving me evidence as to why I’m the best breakup coach ever. How fun was that? Right?

Lindsay: You’re so fun. Okay, first, we have so much in common because I love all the gold stars, I need all the awards. That’s for sure how I know I’m doing a good job. Just got coached on it recently, it’s fine.

And I love that you’re sharing this, and I love how vulnerable you are with it. Because so many coaches have similar thoughts and I think just stopping to question like, how will I know?

Obviously, we’re not actually going to line up all the breakup coaches, one of them happens to be my best friend, right? We’ve talked about this. She’s a breakup coach and I even said that to you at one point like, “Well, I already know a really good breakup coach. So how will we know? How will you know? How will you decide?”

Can you share what you came up with? How did you decide you would know?

Dorothy: Yeah, so I think originally, I first started looking at those external things that I thought were going to be the indicators. So raving reviews, people talking about how amazing everything was.

I think a lot of times people also associate that to money, because I remember there were a couple of people in the group like, if I have a full practice, or I have this many clients, or I’m making this much money.

I didn’t necessarily tie any of it to that because I think I was already making a lot of money, I had a full practice, that kind of thing. But it was also very eye opening too, because as soon as I wrote down all those external variables, they were already things I was getting. I already had all of that and I still didn’t feel like the best breakup coach.

So then it came down to feelings. And that’s when I was like, “Hey, Lindsay, can I base this off of the way that I feel?” And the way that I wanted to feel was important, significant, proud, confident. And so measuring that on a regular basis.

And then I also created best breakup coach evaluations. So after my coaching calls, I would evaluate myself on a scale from 0 to 10. Did I feel like the best breakup coach? 0 not at all, 10 best breakup coach in the entire world, come at me. And then I would rate myself and then say why I gave myself that rating. What went well, what didn’t go well? What would I do differently next time?

And so what was cool about that was I could track my progress over time. So I could see month to month did this increase or decrease? And it continued to increase, increase, increase. And so I love metrics. I love tangible next steps and how to. So for my brain that was super beneficial and helpful. Those were the things that I came up with.

And then I was also tracking those feelings. Was I feeling this way? And it wasn’t something that I checked in with every day, it was more of like a weekly or bi-weekly cadence of am I feeling the way that I want to be feeling?

And then also, I think whenever I wasn’t feeling that way, I would check in with myself and figure out why. Obviously, what circumstance am I attributing that emotion to? And typically the opposite of it would be insignificant.

Feeling insignificant or insecure, which insecure is a feeling I’m very familiar with. I struggled with jealousy a lot, so I could notice it when it comes up pretty easily. And so I would look at why I was feeling that way. All of the things that we’re used to doing as coaches.

Lindsay: I love it. And I think that that is a huge part of what I teach. So one of the very first things we do, but then we kind of check in with it throughout the mastermind, which is how will we know? How are we going to measure it? And people even come into the mastermind, a lot of people, I have everybody set their, what are your top goals? Everybody says some form of I want to be a better coach. I want to work on my coaching skills. I want to be the best breakup coach.

And that’s always my first question is like, okay, how will we know? And it catches people off guard sometimes because I think we’re so used to telling ourselves, like just repeating things like that in our mind that we never question it. We never question, wait, how will I actually know?

And what’s interesting that you touched on a little bit is that I have people post, like how will you know? What’s the measurement? And they can be wildly different.

Dorothy: Yeah.

Lindsay: How is that true also, because you talked about how it helped– I do this sneaky thing where I coach you, and then that’s part of the teaching of like now you apply this to your clients. But it’s like you go first so you understand, you really understand why it’s useful. And so when you think about your clients, what has that changed? How do they know? Are their answers all over the place too?

Dorothy: It’s so good. Lindsay, it changed everything in my business. It was gold and it was worth so much to me to learn that skill, to then give it to my clients. Because getting over your ex looks different to everybody. So some people want to no longer think about their ex. Some people, it just means that they feel confident in their ability to have a life that’s bigger and better than the one they had with their ex.

I talk to my clients a lot about desire and attachment. I think that that is the root cause to getting over someone. And when you address the desire and the attachment, all of the breakup symptoms go away. So anything you’re typically struggling with in terms of your breakup, if you don’t desire that person or you don’t feel attached to that person for your future anymore, all of the other stuff kind of drops away.

So a lot of times they’ll say– I have them look at a desirability and an attachment scale. And so they’ll be like, “Oh, I’m a 10 on the attachment scale, by the end of this program I want to be a 4, a 5, or maybe even a 0.” And so some of it looks like that.

Some of it has to do with feeling secure and stable on their own. So then they’re like, “Oh, I want to feel secure and stable 70% of the time.” And how are they going to be tracking that?

They want to not be missing the life they used to have. They want to be thinking and creating the life that they desire, more often than thinking about the past. And so then they’re tracking every time it comes up. And the way they track it is kind of fun to think about too, because I track everything in Excel documents. Weird.

Lindsay: This is where we aren’t alike, because I’m like, “Wow, that’s a lot. Go for it.”

Dorothy: But some of them check it in their phone and notes and things like that. But yeah, it’s all over the board based off of what you’re struggling with when it comes to heartbreak, breakups, getting over someone, and what’s most important to you.

Because also sometimes people come to me and they feel like they’re mostly over their ex, they just don’t feel like they have anywhere to go. They don’t know what’s next or they feel like their life can’t be bigger and better than the one they just had. And so maybe their focus is more on becoming optimistic and open to the idea of what’s possible.

Lindsay: Yeah, that’s so good. And I think what’s important about that is if you don’t do that, especially as a new coach, if you’re working with one on one clients and you aren’t completely clear. It’s a little different when you have a group program because then your marketing is pretty clear. Like this is what we’re all doing. It’s what we’re all working towards. Anyone within that, we see where the benefits are.

But as one on one coaches, for anyone that’s listening, it’s like if you don’t do that and your client says to you something that can be a little ambiguous, like, “I want to get over my ex.” You might have an idea of what that looks like in your mind and you just assume that that same idea is true for them. And it might not be.

Dorothy: Yeah, and the other thing I was thinking about when you said that, Lindsey, is I remember working with one on one clients and even when it was like something that wasn’t as ambiguous, if we weren’t really clear about where they were going, sometimes they would want to try to change their mind in the middle of our sessions together.

Lindsay: Yes.

Dorothy: And then we’re like avoiding the elephant in the room because we don’t want to– At least for myself, I wouldn’t want to talk about how they weren’t making any progress towards that, because that’s what they hired me to help them with. Versus being very clear about here you are, here’s where you’re going and how you’re going to know. So then where are you at that. And you can literally just look at it as the data versus the drama that, at least LCS teaches us.

And so it was very eye opening for me to see how in the past, not being clear about what does being over your ex actually mean to each individual was keeping some of my Brave Hearts from really diving into what matters to them. I was almost telling them what should matter versus them coming up for that themselves.

Lindsay: So good. Yes, yes, yes. That is part of why I teach that. Because it’s like there’s the math, which is what I call it sometimes. Just the facts, the measurement, the whatever, versus the thoughts and everything that comes up throughout the coaching.

It’s not always bad if halfway through, your client is like, “Oh, it turns out this isn’t exactly what I want.” But when you set it up that way and when you’ve said this is what successes will look like, this is how we know, this is how we know we’re moving in the right direction. Then you have a conversation about it instead of just avoiding it altogether.

Which is like I don’t know, maybe, I don’t know if they’re avoiding it. I don’t know if they want to change the goal. I don’t really know. I’m just going to show up and hope that they come with some coaching.

Dorothy: And actually this is something that I think I brought up to you at one point where I’m like, “How do you know what’s best for your client versus helping them with what you think is what’s best for them?”

And I think setting this goal up in the way that you teach us is also very helpful for that because it’s very easy as a breakup coach or a heartbreak coach to talk about– One of the things I talk about all the time that differentiates from a lot of people is the no contact role and how you shouldn’t have contact with your ex.

But there are people who still want to have some sort of relationship with their ex and that’s what success looks like to them, is being able to still hold a conversation with their ex and no longer have the desire or attachment to be with that person. And who am I to say that that’s not allowed? Or who am I to say that that’s not okay, or that they can’t get over their ex in that way? Do you know what I mean?

Lindsay: Yeah, especially if they’re some situation where they can’t have zero contact. Maybe kids are involved, or family is involved,

Dorothy: Or they work with their ex.

Lindsay: Or they work together or something. I worked with many exes, I worked in too many restaurants. We all worked together, it was fine. It wasn’t weird at all.

Yeah, I love that. I think it is really important and what I really love about you being here is that you’re demonstrating that this is important, not just in the beginning of your business, not just after your first 10 clients, your first 20 clients.

You make quite a bit of money, you have a lot of clients and it’s still, this is something I even check in with all the time. And this is a process that I consider just like never ending. Always something to check in with. I feel like I’m always even getting better at it each round of my mastermind. So I’m really grateful that you shared that.

Dorothy: Yes. And actually, can I talk one more thing about best breakup coach?

Lindsay: Of course, just to be sure everybody knows that you are.

Dorothy: Yes, if you haven’t heard this yet, I’m the best breakup coach.

Lindsay: No, of course, I love it. Please do.

Dorothy: So you and I are in Coaching Masters working on this over and over and over again. And we’re talking about how do you know? Are you going to have a coach off? What’s happening here, all the things. And then Stacey has her 200K mastermind event in Cabo. I wasn’t a part of 200K at the time.

But then she shared the clip of the awards. And then Dr. Chavonne stands up on stage and talks about being the best marriage coach. And then she was in the room with Maggie, who is also the best marriage coach. And then all of a sudden, all of the work that we had been doing for however many months came to like the epiphany. You guys know it. You coaches know it, the part where you have like the click in your brain.

It happened and it was so great. And I messaged you and I was like, “Boo, I get it. The best breakup coach. I get it now.” All of a sudden there can be all of us being the best. And so like that was the epiphany that kind of clicked everything. All of the work that we had taken and been doing, it just like snapped. You know what I mean? That feeling is so great.

Lindsay: 100%. And it’s so good, right? It’s like you can understand it on a, what’s the word I’m looking for?

Dorothy: Conceptual level.

Lindsay: Conceptual level of like I can logic my way through this. Where it’s like, of course, there are multiple of us. And of course, we are all going to attract different people. And there’s room and all of the things. But really understanding it in your bones is so different and it allows you to just release all of the thoughts that you have about colleagues, about friends, about maybe clients who, in my case like clients who do something similar. People who’ve been your coaches who start teaching something similar.

I mean, I’ve been through all of it and I am at a place now where I’m like, “Oh, yeah, it’s all fine. Just do it.” Not that I’m saying I’ll never be triggered or upset by any of it. I’m sure I will, because I’m a human. But it just makes such a difference. You can just release all of the like– The best happens inside of me, not I have to search for it outside of me.

Dorothy: Yes. So good.

Lindsay: And I did want to come back to something you said which was thinking about like reviews and testimonials and all of that. And it’s not that those things aren’t important, right? If all of your clients were like, “This is terrible. I hate it. I’m not getting results.” Maybe we would look at it and be like, “No, no, we’re not going to be a delirious, we’re not just owning that we’re the best and none of our clients are getting results.” That’s not it `at all.

I think what makes the biggest difference is seeing the one bad review, like the podcast review or something that would normally really hit hard. And maybe it still does but you know okay, it’s okay.

Dorothy: Yeah, that was something else that we also worked on, which is so profound and helpful. I was taking my negative reviews on the podcast so personally. So personally, and I’d get really like bitter. And I would get bitter about it being like, “I don’t have to do this free podcast for you. No one’s forcing you to listen to my podcast. If you don’t like it, just don’t listen to it.” And I would get so up in my head about it.

So all the best breakup coach work that we’ve done also really helped with that because, again, it’s not necessarily about me. And isn’t it funny, you could have like 100 reviews, and there’s one bad one. And the rest of them are like five stars.

Lindsay: I know. Yeah, it happens. I see them. I think one thing I said to you was like, “Listen, go look at some coaches that you love. And just go look at their reviews. Of course, everybody has negative reviews.” And with a podcast, you can’t do anything about it. You can’t respond, you can’t remove them. You can’t. There’s nothing you can do. So it’s just there for the world to see.

Dorothy: Well, and so I actually went and looked at You Are a Badass by Jen Sincero on Amazon, one of my favorite books, changed my life.

Lindsay: Yeah, that’s good.

Dorothy: And started looking at the negative reviews that she had. And then just like this is so fascinating. And those negative reviews don’t influence my perception. So I think that was the other thing I had to remember was the negative reviews weren’t influencing the true Brave Hearts who love me and love what I do. That wasn’t going to influence their perception of me either.

Lindsay: Yeah. And for whatever reason, sometimes we aren’t the right coach for people. That’s something that it is okay to believe that and let it sink in and just know there are people out there that probably shouldn’t work with us. We truly aren’t the best coach for them. And that’s why there are so many coaches, and that’s a good thing.

Dorothy: I know, right? That’s so good. That’s another thing too that I learned in the past six months that we’ve been together of, I have now had two successful launches that have filled. And the first version, or I guess the first one that filled, it was at 25 and I had this one individual in there, who we started coaching.

We started the first coaching call or whatever and she asked something in the Slack channel, and I responded. And she so clearly didn’t want to be coached. And I was finally in this head space of being like, “That’s okay. I don’t think that this is then the space for you. So I’ll refund your money and do you want a referral for something different?” This that and the other.

And then two more people filled that spot. And then the rest of the group, the dynamic of the group was more amazing. The calls were more amazing. I felt so different on the calls having a group of 26 individuals who genuinely wanted to be there. It’s such a different feeling than filling it with just anyone. Do you know what I mean?

Lindsay: Oh yeah, I definitely do. Clinging so tightly to clients who just clearly aren’t for us is one of the hardest things, I think, to work on in your business because it feels like you can take it very personally. I’m doing it wrong. I’m not the best. I’m like, whatever. When it really might just be nope, there’s something about this, the container, the structure, you, whatever it is, that it’s okay. It really is okay, you don’t have to be the coach for everyone.

Dorothy: So good.

Lindsay: Okay, I’m going to bring up something that I still laugh about when I think about it. And I did get your permission to ask you about this beforehand. I don’t want people to think I’m just calling you out.

But one day, I got onto Facebook and I was looking in the mastermind and coaching on all the things. And I was scrolling through and there was a basically 10 page post from you talking about your process. The process of like start to finish, here is what I do with my clients.

And my first thought, and I can’t remember exactly what I asked you first. But I’m pretty sure the first thing I had to do was just clarify. Because I was like, wait, I thought this was like, what, a three month program or something like that.

Dorothy: Yeah.

Lindsay: But what I was seeing was like a 10 year program. And so I was like, I just want to make sure, maybe I misunderstood. Maybe you have four rounds of three months. Maybe that’s what it is? So I asked a bunch of questions. And you were like, “Yeah, it’s three months.” How did you feel about that? In the moment, how did you feel? Were you like, I hate her, I’m out?

Dorothy: No, I was like, “Why doesn’t she get it?” I was like it’s so simple.

Lindsay: I was so confused.

Dorothy: Lindsay, it’s so clear. What do you mean? And then I think we went back and forth a couple times and we never got it. I think at one point you were just like, “I don’t get it.”

Lindsay: I mean, my thought was like, “Okay, it’s working and she seems to understand. So I’m not going to just tell her she has to change it, because that’s not what I do. And I’m clearly just missing it. I’m missing the point of what’s happening. But if she feels great about what’s happening in the coaching, then we’re good.”

Dorothy: And it was funny because simultaneously while that happened, I did an interview with one of my Brave Hearts on the podcast. And she’s in nursing school, or she just finished nursing school. She goes, “Yeah, the program is like a college level course.”

Lindsay: In three months.

Dorothy: Yeah. And then I was like, “Oh, I think I’m getting what Lindsay was getting at.” So that’s when I kind of realized every single week I’m covering so much content. I wanted to give my Brave Hearts everything I’ve ever had that I’ve found useful throughout my entire healing journey in one three month program.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Dorothy: And it’s not that people didn’t like it. People ate it up and loved it and it was super helpful and super beneficial. But when it came to getting over your ex, if someone came to me just to get over their ex, it was kind of like a lot to take on.

Lindsay: Yes. I mean, I have a thought about myself that’s like, I’m pretty smart, I’m educated. I’m smart in a book smart kind of way, right? There’s so many different ways to be smart. But my thought about myself is like, “I’m intelligent. I understand most things.” And I was reading it and I was like, “I don’t understand this, but I think she does.”

So I just remember just like leaving it. And then you came back not too much later and you said– I don’t remember what you said, but it was like, I think I had a realization.

Dorothy: Yeah, yeah, I did. I had this huge realization that– Well, because what was happening was I had this five day training, five day get over your ex training and people would get over their ex in five days. I was like, “How is that? How does that happen? How are you guys getting over your ex in five days?” Number one, why am I making it take three months?

And then there was also a time where I asked for an affiliate link for one of my colleagues, because she talks about time. And then she was asking me like, why? Why are your clients asking you about time in a get over your ex program?

So it’s like a perfect storm of events between you and the conversation we had on Facebook, plus looking at our processes and our strategy. And again, I was feeding them with a water hose. Which I know we’ve talked about before. In the coaching industry I think a lot of people hear don’t feed your clients from this big water hose. Give them a glass of water. Allow them to sip it.

And then there was the added component of time where I’m just this huge advocate about time not having to do anything with your healing. It doesn’t just take time to get over your ex. And yet here I am putting this three month container on them saying, you must take three months.

Lindsay: To learn all the things and turn your whole life around.

Dorothy: All of it, you can’t just learn how to get over your ex. You need to learn about time, and your limiting beliefs around money. I would go all out. It was so eye opening for me. And when I learned that it was just this huge light bulb moment for me. And then it was so fun too, I think this was the fun part where it was like, oh my gosh, I get to create the Get Over Your Ex framework.

And so I looked at, again, the number one thing that I teach inside the program is about desire and attachment. And let’s reduce desire for your ex as if you were to reduce desire for ice cream, through changing your thoughts. And there are four pillars to that.

And again, coming from this place where I’ve been doing this since 2019 at this point, I’ve taken multiple one on one clients through. I’ve now taken like seven groups through. I can now so clearly see the main isolated problem and how to solve for it. And so it makes the Get Over Your Ex framework so easy for me to create.

And then the only thing I needed to do differently at that point is allow people to go through the content at their own pace, instead of forcing them to spend a week on this and a week on that and a week on this. And so that was super cool.

Oh, and another thing, Lindsay, that I want to talk about in your program, it’s so funny. So when you get into Coaching Masters, the way we approach things, we’re so different. So someone gets into the Get Over Your Ex Program and I’m like, “All right, Boo, give me your address. I need to get you this workbook, it’s 90 days’ worth of exercises. Your Breakup Bible.” Which by the way is fucking fire. It’s super cool.

Lindsay: Yeah, I’m sure it’s amazing.

Dorothy: Yeah, but then Lindsey is like, “Oh, can I get your address.” Like three weeks into the program she’s like, “Can I get your address? And then you’re going to get your workbook in a couple of weeks. But it’s fine because we’re not going to need it.” And I’m like, “What do you mean we’re not going to need it? What? We don’t need it right away? I want to get into the daily work.”

But what was so cool and so needed for me to realize was she would be like, “Here’s this one thing and you have this one exercise. And, Dorothy, you have all week to do it.” What? It was so great. It was so relaxing. It was so much release and relief. And it was so easeful and so profound and impactful in just like this one exercise that I did that week, or this one thing that I looked at this week.

And so that was huge for me to also realize, so yes, I revamped the Breakup Bible It looks a little bit different now.

Lindsay: I love that. Listen, I also have an amazing OBM at this point. I was in a bit of a transition, I’m pretty sure, when you very first came in. And I’ve cleaned some of that up. So you get the workbook now before we start, or at least like the first week.

Dorothy: And I didn’t mean to dis that, I just thought it was funny. And it was like one of those realizations, like why am I so anal about so many things? And it doesn’t have to be so serious, you know?

Lindsay: I actually find some of the clients that have the biggest transformations in my mastermind are the ones that come in with very high expectations and very– Not high expectations of what they’re going to get, but like the actual physical things they’re going to get and the actions.

Like no, I need a syllabus. I need a textbook to come in the mail before we start, so I can read it all. I can do all the exercises before we start so I really know what’s happening. And I’m like, no, no, we’re going to slow down, that’s part of what we’re doing here.

Not slowing down the results in your business, which is actually so fun because– This isn’t something I talk about a lot because we don’t even talk about like making money specifically in the mastermind. But you make a lot more money by slowing down your brain.

Dorothy: Yes.

Lindsay: And simplifying your process and just really letting go of some of the extra stuff that you just don’t need.

Dorothy: And it made it so much more fun. The process for me was so much more fun coming into you program where it was just so relaxed. And I feel like maybe relaxed isn’t the right word. There was space. There was space to breathe, there was space to think before just doing all of these activities. And for me that was something I apparently needed and I didn’t even know I needed it.

But yes, slowing down my brain. Slowing everything down, looking at my process and my strategy again from a completely different viewpoint. Because I thought, you guys, for any of you listening who think you know about your process and your strategy, and I’m like, pretty far– I shouldn’t say pretty far along.

Lindsay: You are.

Dorothy: Yeah, I’m further along in my business.

Lindsay: You’re allowed to say it. You’re the best breakup coach, you’re pretty far along.

Dorothy: Best breakup coach, yes. And I thought I knew process and strategy. I was like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, Lindsay. Cool, cool, cool, done this.” But I had so much to learn from it and so much to simplify and make more effective. And it was such a beautiful thing.

And then, yes, one of the wins that I put in the channel that I thought was super cool, was I had my highest revenue month of 50K which was so cool. And I don’t think that that’s a coincidence.

I think learning all the things about process and strategy, recognizing and realizing myself as the best breakup coach, feeling proud, significant, important, without all of the external, I mean, I had the external things, but they weren’t doing anything for me in the first place. It was all a contributing factor to the revenue and the clients and filling my launches. So I think that’s very important to say as well.

Lindsay: That’s so fun.

Dorothy: Yeah, you talk about–  I think you’ve said that. I’ve read one of your emails, or maybe it was an Instagram post about your program isn’t necessarily about business or making more money or anything like that. But that’s definitely going to be a byproduct of believing you’re a really good coach. By believing you’re really impactful and you get your clients results, there’s no way that you won’t sign more clients or make more money.

Lindsay: I love that. Yeah, I mean, I 100% believe that’s true. And I think that there is a balance between learning the business things. You have to know how to market, you have to know how to sell, you have to know how to do all of the business things that you might not know coming into being an entrepreneur.

But being really good at what you do and being able to believe that you’re really good at what you do, even maybe the best at what you do is going to affect all of that. It definitely is going to play a role in your marketing, your sales, your everything. And just how you feel every day and your business.

And when your process is way more simple, and your clients are getting better results. What do you think is happening for them?

Dorothy: Oh, it’s just so much easier. So much easier and so much more clear. I think the biggest thing that keeps coming up, and I talked about it a little bit already, but you can so clearly see the problem when you know the before and the after in a data driven way.

Lindsay: Yes.

Dorothy: So they come up to a problem, so let’s say for example, I keep missing my ex. Or I’m missing this specific thing about my ex.

Actually, I want to talk about deep connection because that actually came up on a call this morning. But it’s like the attachment to the connection that you had with your ex. So this happens a lot where people are feeling really attached to their ex because they feel like they won’t have deep connection or the connection that they had with their ex with somebody else.

And so when you can say, “Okay, we’re looking at desire, because in the beginning, you laid out being over that person means you no longer desire that person, you no longer feel attached to that person. We’ve got to reduce it. Therefore it’s super clear that if this is one of the primary thoughts that is creating the attachment, we’ve got to simply question that thought and question the validity of it. And spend time wiggling that loose, to then get you to lower the desire.”

And so right now we are in week six, which is midpoint of my program. And we evaluate, we look at where are you on the desire scale? So maybe they were at a nine and now they’re at a six. But what are the thoughts that reduce desire? So then that’s really cool too, because the other Brave Hearts in the program get to see, here are the other thoughts that they’re thinking that reduce desire.

So maybe it’s like, I had deep connection with that person, but it doesn’t mean I can’t create that deep connection again with someone else. I had that deep connection with that person, but I was the one that created that deep connection.

An epiphany someone else had today that was so good was, the only reason this person was so unique to me was because of my lens of that person that made them so unique. They might be bland to someone else.

And so you can so clearly see the problem and how to address it. And again, you don’t have that big elephant in the room that you’re just avoiding or walking around. You can clearly and directly talk about the problem. Which I just think has changed everything in my business, especially going from one on one to group.

So if you don’t learn how to do that with one on one, you might have heard this from other coaches, but whatever you’re doing in one on one will be amplified in a group.

Lindsay: Oh, yeah, because then you have like 20 faces looking at you while you’re coaching on the thing and you’re thinking, “They’re getting nothing out of this, I don’t know what’s happening.”

Dorothy: So it’s just really good to be able to address those problems head on, especially in a group setting. And then it also amplifies the energy of the group when you can make it so clear as to what the problem is and how to solve for that problem.

Lindsay: Okay, I don’t want to keep you on for like another hour. So I’m looking at the notes I took deciding which is the most important thing to talk about. And I think one of the reasons you told me, one thing you shared that just personally this is like one of my favorite things about my mastermind. Whether other people love it or not, I’m never really sure. But you shared this, so I’m guessing people must love it, or at least some people.

But one of my favorite things is that there are coaches from all over the industry. And a lot of coaching spaces you go into, especially to improve your coaching, to work on coaching skills. So maybe you’re going to get a new certification or some kind of training.

Something that’s very different about Coaching Masters is that there are coaches from all over the industry. And my perspective on it, my approach to it isn’t, “Okay, now we all have to do it the same.” It’s more of a let’s figure out what your style is. Let’s figure out how you’re going to do this with your clients.

And one thing that you told me is that one reason you came in is to be with other coaches. You were certified through the Life Coach School, to be with other coaches not certified through LCS. I don’t think it was because you’re like anti LCS at all.

Dorothy: No, I love LCS.

Lindsay: Yeah, what were the reasons? Why was that important to you?

Dorothy: Yeah, so I love LCS, oh my gosh, they changed my life. But I think one of the things that I was really excited to see was just how other people were implementing other methods and modalities.

So I was dabbling in inner voice facilitator training. I was dabbling in Human Design. I was just like touching my toes into these different things just out of pure curiosity for myself. And so what was interesting to me is I wanted to see what it looked like for other people who didn’t have LCS certifications and what they were doing and how they integrated those things into their business and into their coaching. I was open to seeing both of those things.

Not because I wanted to change what I was doing or anything like that. But as I was dipping my toe into these other modalities, I got curious as to how I could use them with my clients, what would that look like? And I just wanted other perspectives that were outside of LCS, that didn’t have their way of doing–

Because, for me, at least, a lot of the people I was talking to in LCS, they’d do a lot of the same things. We all use the model, it’s amazing, beautiful. I’m obsessed and I love it. I just wanted to see what other people were doing.

And so it was really cool to have this group of coaches together, all using different kinds of tools for awareness. And how you had us break down the different things and the different tools that we used for each section. It was cool to see what other things were out there.

I think people were talking about RTT and a couple of different modalities. And I don’t know, I was just interested in seeing what that looked like. And is that something that I want to integrate at some point? And just getting a perspective that was different than what I’ve seen before. Does that make sense?

Lindsay: Yeah, I think one thing that I noticed that happens for a lot of my clients is it just kind of loosens their grip a little bit on the super attachment to I have to know this one thing, and I have to do it so well.

Now, part of what I teach is be really good at what you do. But there’s a difference between really leaning into it and making it your own, loving the modality that you use, versus I need to nail it just like they do, whoever they is. That’s just very different.

Dorothy: Yes, and it goes back to right or wrong for me. It’s just recognizing that there was no right or wrong way to do it.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Dorothy: So it was like I’m used to using the model with my clients, I still do, it’s one of the most important tools that I teach them. However, there are a bunch of other tools that I like to introduce to them. And that’s not right or wrong to talk about with the model, or use in correlation to the model, or use as a side tool with the model. Does that make sense?

Lindsay: Yes.

Dorothy: Yeah, I guess a tangible example– You know me, I just like all the tangible examples.

Lindsay: I love it.

Dorothy: A tangible example of this is inner voice facilitator training, where I went and got certified to use inner voice work. And we can use the model to look at feelings, like what thoughts are creating feelings. But I found the inner voice to be really useful and helpful between feeling the overwhelming emotion, like experiencing the overwhelming emotion versus analyzing the overwhelming emotion.

And so it was like if we could tap into the inner voice to allow ourselves to calm down and actually experience the emotion through our body using the inner voice technique, then I was able to use the model with them from a more calmed down state that allowed them to look at it from a more neutral standpoint.

And I think before coming into Coaching Masters I was like, “Oh my god, I should be hesitant about introducing this. I should be hesitant to do it because it might be the wrong thing to do. And is anyone else doing this? I don’t know.” And so during and after Coaching Masters I’m like, “No, I can absolutely. This is my business. This is my method. No one else has this method.”

Again, going back to best breakup coach, I have a method that no one else has. And this is a part of that method. Does that make sense?

Lindsay: Yeah, so good. And I do want to just a little caveat, and you and I talked about this before we started recording. But I just recorded a podcast a couple weeks ago with Simone Seol and we talked about method constraint. I want to just point out that this is a really good example of someone being at the point in their business where it might make sense to say like, hey, I notice this same thing coming up for my clients. I don’t know if this is exactly how it goes for them, but I’m just going to kind of make it up.

I notice this thing coming up where they are trying to analyze, they’re like in their analytical brain talking about a feeling versus being in their body experiencing the feeling. And I don’t maybe know how to like work them through that. So where could I find a tool for that?

You’re at a point in your business where you’re making plenty of money, you know what you’re doing. My guess is if I said to you before you did that, like no, you can never go learn another tool, you would have made it work without. You would have figured it out, it would have been perfect.

Dorothy: And I did for a really long time. I did find there are tools, thought work tools, thought work based tools to help you feel feelings and experience emotion. And it worked and it still does work. This was just another tool to pull out of your toolbox that helps my clients through a more meditative situation.

And you’ll notice too that not all of your clients use it. I have around three to five tools to experience emotion, very specific tools to experience emotion. And there are going to be clients who gravitate to one and not the other. And it’s not because some work and some don’t. It’s because some people feel gravitated and enjoy different tools.

Lindsay: Yes. And there’s just such a difference between, I really know my business. I know my clients, I want to be better at this thing. Versus I don’t know what I’m doing. I think I just need to go, I guess I need to learn something else so that I can figure out my business.

Dorothy: Yes.

Lindsay: It’s just so different. And the experience of learning the thing is so different when you’re just learning it from a place of I really want to understand this. Like this is deeper learning for me. There’s no connection to and now I’m going to make so much more money or now I can finally believe I’m the best breakup coach or whatever.

Dorothy: Yep.

Lindsay: Okay, to wrap up, two questions. First one, what was your favorite part about Coaching Masters? Because you’ve already told us specifically why you joined. So what was your favorite part or what else haven’t you said? We’re just going to do, of course, like a little plug for my mastermind.

Dorothy: Okay, so there are so many favorite parts, how do I pick one? I guess I want to start out by saying I think that who you are drew me to Coaching Masters.

So I felt so seen by you, and so appreciated, and so understood, and so taken care of before I ever even signed up for Coaching Masters. Because you, I think it was in 200K maybe where you were like my lead group person the second time around. And every time I interacted with you, you were so patient with me. So there’s that. But I just felt so seen and so understood. And I think that that’s important to have in the person you choose to be your coach. And I appreciated that.

The second thing is that one of my favorite parts about Coaching Masters was, I guess I already touched on it before, but it was just the space and the slowness. And again, it wasn’t slowing down my business. My business in terms of like revenue numbers, all that picked up. But it was the slowing down of my brain, the slowing down of my thinking, the slowing down of relaxing into just letting things be, for me, was very much needed.

And watching you do that as an example was important for me to see. And then helping guide me through that was also very important. Does that make sense?

Lindsay: Yeah, I love.

Dorothy: And then, of course, ending it as the best breakup coach ever, that’s great, too.

Lindsay: Yeah, of course, I mean, of course it makes sense to me. But I just want to say for just a second that I appreciate you sharing that so much. And I think for anybody listening, I just want them to know that when I hear these things, especially the thing about kind of going slow and calming your brain down. I know that that’s something I teach, but I still have drama about it.

So for you to say those things, these are the types of things sometimes that I’m like, okay, like, even me, right? It’s like, this is what I teach. And still, I’m like, “Okay, yeah, I’m doing it right.” It’s just interesting. I just like to share that because I think sometimes we think that we’re just going to get on the other side of all these thoughts that we have. And you don’t, you just keep working on them. And then other thoughts come up, and then you work on those. And there’s just always something.

So there’s just never a point where you’re like–  Even you, I’m scared to tell you this, but there might be a day that you’re like, “I’m the worst breakup coach. I hate it. I’m quitting.”

Dorothy: Oh my gosh, yes. I feel like every time I go through a launch, I’m like, who am I? Do I even know what the fuck I’m doing? Do I know, really?

Lindsay: Yes.

Dorothy: So I totally, yes, absolutely that happens and it comes up. I think, also, the other thing that I love about your program, this is just like a silly thing. But I feel like I have my shit together. I feel like I really have got it together. And I haven’t felt like that in a while.

And I know, I’ll go back to feeling like I don’t have it together at some point in time. But it was, again, another byproduct of working on everything we worked on. It was just like, wow, I think I actually have more together than I think I do.

Lindsay: Yes. Yeah, we talked about this before we started recording. But this is a thought that I share with you a lot. Not that I share with you, but that I have in common with you.

Sometimes I catch myself thinking like, “Gosh, I have got to get my shit together.” And then it’s like, wait, what, what? What does that mean? What am I talking about? And it’s like we don’t get to the places that we are in our businesses, having none of the shit together, whatever that means. It’s just not even possible.

Those are the kinds of thoughts where you just have to be onto your brain. And just like, “Okay, calm down. It’s not that bad.” Some days, it feels bad. But this is the stuff I like to share to just show like, yeah, we’re all still real humans and of course this comes up.

Dorothy: Yeah. I love it.

Lindsay: So very last thing, how can people find you? If anyone listening is currently experiencing a breakup, where do they go? If they just want to see how cute you are, where do they go? Tell them all the things.

Dorothy: Yeah, so you can find me on Instagram @breakupcoachdorothy. You can also go to my website, which is Dorothy D-O-R-O-T-H-Y, A as in apple, B as in boy, johnson.com. And find all of my information there.

Or if you love listening to podcasts, I have an amazing podcast called How to Get Over Your Ex. You can find that on Spotify or iTunes, wherever you listen to podcasts. I hope to meet you.

Lindsay: I love it. All right. Well, thank you so much.

Dorothy: Thank you, Lindsay, I appreciate you.

Lindsay: I appreciate you.

Oh my goodness, isn’t she the best? That was so fun. And as usual, I felt like I could just go on for hours and hours and hours, ask all of the questions. I hope that you loved it. I hope you enjoyed her as much as I did.

To find her information, you could head to my website, lindsaydotzlafcoaching.com, find my show notes and we will link up all of her things.

The other thing is if you really resonated with what she was talking about, and you know that now is your time to join Coaching Masters, we are currently in a launch. Enrollment is open right now. So again, just head to my website, lindsaydotzlafcoaching.com or find me on Instagram @Lindsaydotzlaf and come and join us, we have a lot of fun. And transform the way you coach and how you feel about your business. Can’t wait to see you there.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Mastering Coaching Skills. If you want to learn more about my work, come visit me at lindsaydotzlafcoaching.com. That’s Lindsay with an A, D-O-T-Z-L-A-F.com. see you next week.