Lindsay:      Hey, this is Lindsay Dotzlaf, and you are listening to Mastering Coaching Skills episode nine.

Lindsay:      To really compete in the coaching industry you have to be great at coaching, that’s why every week I will be answering your questions, sharing my stories and offering tips and advice so you can be the best at what you do. Let’s get to work.

Lindsay:      Hi, loves. I have something so fun for you today and I’m going to apologize ahead of time for those of you that love my shorter episodes, first of all, thank you for telling me, I love that you love it. Today, it’s going to be a little bit longer but trust me when I say totally worth it. I am having a conversation with Brig Johnson, she has been a client of mine, we have worked together one-on-one, and she’s been in my Coaching Masters Mastermind. And now not only is she my amazing friend and colleague, but I also think she’s one of the best coaches I know.

Lindsay:      So I thought it was super appropriate to have her as my very first interview on the podcast. And really, I guess it’s more of a conversation and you guys just get to eavesdrop. I hope that you love it and here we go. So first of all, thank you for being here, so excited to talk to you today, and I would love you to just introduce yourself.

Brig:  Okay. First of all, so I’m looking forward to this conversation, I feel like they’re going to just be flies on a wall. Yes, but I’m Brig Johnson and I’m a life and mindset coach for high achieving Black women. I help them get through their breakthrough so they can be their best selves.

Lindsay:      I love it. So I asked you to do this interview and when I started this podcast, I actually decided that I was going to do 10 episodes before I did any interviews, and I’m breaking the rules for you because it’s my birthday week, last week was your birthday.

Brig:  Yes.

Lindsay:      And I think this is the ninth episode and breaking the rules because I just had to have you here.

Brig:  Oh, that’s so cool.

Lindsay:      My first question is, will you just sing me happy birthday?

Brig:  Oh, of course I will.

Lindsay:      I’m kidding. I’m kidding.

Brig:  Oh you know, I will though. I was going to ask you the Marilyn Monroe version or the Stevie Wonder version.

Lindsay:      Oh, it’s so good. I love it. Of course, you are going to sing.

Brig:  Of course.

Lindsay:      I love it. So happy birthday to you.

Brig:  Thank you. Happy birthday to you, 40th.

Lindsay:      Oh my gosh, I know. So before we get to the serious stuff, I do want to know how you celebrated your birthday because last year you took all the naked photos.

Brig:  All the naked, all the button naked photos, right.

Lindsay:      And they were so good and put them all over the internet.

Brig:  Yes.

Lindsay:      Because you’re a boss. What did you do this year?

Brig:  This year was actually very low key, I got a cabin in the woods and just enjoyed myself. Yeah, I totally was low key, which is so funny because a lot of people see that side of me and don’t understand that really the cabin in the woods by the fire is more me than the glamorous photo shoot person.

Lindsay:      Do you think it’s more you or is it just like those are your two…?

Brig:  Different versions.

Lindsay:      Yeah, I would say I am very, very similar to that and then can totally relate and I didn’t really do much for my birthday, I stayed home and it was very low key and it was actually really nice. So what did you do at the cabin? Like did you work? Did you just chill?

Brig:  I just literally chilled, I did, I took lots of books that I didn’t read, I took lots of journals that I didn’t write on. So good but I sat by the fire. Yeah, I actually went and got pizza.

Lindsay:      I love it.

Brig:  And just enjoyed myself, watch some TV.

Lindsay:      Yeah. It’s rested.

Brig:  Just rested, it really was rest.

Lindsay:      You’ve had a big last what? Six months or so.

Brig:  I have, I really have.

Lindsay:      You tell us what you’ve been working on.

Brig:  Just really solidifying my voice who I serve and then going all in on them and building my business to six figures, which was amazing.

Lindsay:      So fun.

Brig:  I know it was so fun.

Lindsay:      And keep going. You’ve been getting master coach certified.

Brig:  Oh yes. I’ve been master coach certified.

Lindsay:      Yes.

Brig:  I finished that next year. Yeah, it’s been a lot and fun at the same time.

Lindsay:      Yes. And still working a job?

Brig:  Yeah, and still working a full-time job, coach and part-time at the self-coaching scholars, coaching part part-time for that, I can’t even say it.

Lindsay:      So you have 12 jobs, you’re getting master coach certified, finding time to coach a full-time client load.

Brig:  Yes, all of it. I have a full client roster and you know what? It’s so funny because if you hadn’t told me I was going to be doing all these things a year ago, I would’ve said there would’ve been no way. And so when clients come to me as like, I have this, this, this, this, this, and I’m overwhelmed. I always go, “No. I’m not overwhelmed because of that.”

Lindsay:      I was coaching you a year ago and you did tell me there was no way.

Brig:  Right, I’m sure I did.

Lindsay:      You said, I remember you saying something like, I think probably 10 clients would be like the most I could take or-

Brig:  Right.

Lindsay:      … maybe I should just do a mastermind, so it’s like, “Aha, one call or whatever.” Right?

Brig:  Right. Yeah. Well, so much for that. It literally really is a C, and I think for me, the thought that’s getting me there is like, this is my dream. I remember being a year ago going, “I just want a full roster. I want to coach. And I love coaching and self-coaching scholars too.” So I love it, I love master coach training. Like everything that I’m doing, I’m like all for it, so yeah.

Lindsay:      What is your favorite part of coaching?

Brig:  That moment when the client goes, “Ah.”

Lindsay:      It’s so good, right?

Brig:  Right.

Lindsay:      You can see there, especially if you’re on Zoom, you can see their shoulders kind of relax, just sinking into it. That’s truly my favorite part too.

Brig:  Right. And it’s so fun when they’re like resist, resist, resist, resist. And you’re like, “Okay.” I think it’s fun for me even in that, because then I got to go, “Okay, well, how else can I say it? Okay, well, let me try this way.” And then they go, “Oh,” and I’m like, “Yeah.”

Lindsay:      Tell me about the clients that you work with and what do you usually coach them on? What do they come to you for? Tell me all the things, whatever you want to say about that.

Brig:  My clients are typically high achieving Black women, doing a lot of A work, working on the A line taking all of the actions. It’s not uncommon that my client will have two degrees, a PhD, MD, a psychology degree, be published, be whatever and still not satisfied because they’re just working the A line, and they have a story on how they need to show up and I just help them unpack that so they get to choose how they want to show up and taking that burden off of them for like, “I need to do this. I need to do that.”

Brig:  And I just help them unburden themselves. And then they actually work and show up even better which always surprises them.

Lindsay:      Yeah, so basically you show them how to be you, do all the things without feeling overwhelmed, which is so fun. And then do you make them go get a cabin in the woods by themselves and rest?

Brig:  No, but I did offer a bonus on his last one, so they are going to do a butt-naked photo-shoot those that.

Lindsay:      So good, of course they are, I love it.

Brig:  They’re doing a butt-naked photo-shoot owning all of them.

Lindsay:      It’s like, if they sign up with you as their coach, they get that as a bonus?

Brig:  Right, right, right. From now until it sells out and I’m thinking probably five or six more and then I’m like, “Okay, that’s enough.” Because I want to keep it intimate but yeah, so yeah. And which means some of mines that are renewing they’re asking like, “Can I get in on that photo shoot?” I’m like, “Yeah. You sure can.”

Lindsay:      I love it.

Brig:  It’s going to be fun.

Lindsay:      So if anybody’s listening and they want to have a naked photo shoot, now’s your chance.

Brig:  Right. The photo shoot just symbolizes them, I do a lot of work on acceptance of who you are all of you, I think that is, I don’t know you tell me, but I think that’s my strongest point is helping women accept all of themselves like all of themselves.

Lindsay:      Yeah.

Brig:  The good, the bad, and the ugly.

Lindsay:      Why do you think that that’s what you’re so good at?

Brig:  Because that’s the work that I did and I’m so good at it, maybe because I just have a lot of ugly that I had to fix-

Lindsay:      No.

Brig:  … but it wasn’t even fixing, it was just acceptance like leaning into it. I’m really good at it because I know the value of leaning into it as opposed to being afraid of it.

Lindsay:      So good.

Brig:  Yeah, it’s like, I tell my clients all the time it’s like, “We treat it as if you…” You know when you’re watching a scary movie and the music comes on? It’s like we live in this world where the music is always playing and we’re afraid, but really it was just a plant that fail, it wasn’t a boogeyman, it was just something that we just have to look at but the music makes us not want to go to it.

Lindsay:      That’s such a good way to think about it, I love that.

Brig:  It’s like, “Yeah. Oh my God, the music.”

Lindsay:      That’s so funny. So I know because we worked together for a while, a year and a half, a year and a half is so fun. I love it, I miss you, we stopped working together, what? Maybe a month or so ago. And I think about you all the time. And of course…

Brig:  All the time.

Lindsay:      I really think you were when I say, one of my best clients, I don’t mean like the quality of you as a person is better than anyone else, obviously. But when I think of you I just think you’re such a great example of what I love to work with clients on and really leaning into the being the best possible coach you can for your clients.

Lindsay:      I know that you are one of the best coaches I know and I think that’s pretty incredible. I don’t know if you’ve ever told me this before or not, but how did you very first find coaching? Like what was your first exposure to people have life coaches?

Brig:  I think my first exposure was probably everybody else like Oprah, she had life coaches on there. And you know they were like Dr. Phil and they would go on Iyanla Vanzant, they’re life coaches.

Brig:  And so that was my first thing and I would go, “I want to be that,” but they felt so far away, it was like, “Well, do I have to have this amazing life or what? What qualifies you to be a life coach?” And so transfer that like several years later and I found myself heartbroken in Thailand with one of my girlfriends on my birthday, on a rooftop smoking gin. Not smoking, drinking some…

Brig:  Only reason why I noticed this because it was my birthday and you know how Facebook memories gives you your memories. And I was like, “Wow, that was 2017.” And so I saw the umbrella picture and I saw Self-Coaching Scholars thing there. And so she just literally handed me her work, her workbook for that month and said, “I think you would be interested in this.”

Brig:  And I listened, looked at the workbook, got my credit card out, and signed up. And then two months later signed up for certification and yeah, that was it, on my way.

Lindsay:      Wow. So you signed up for a program that your friend was in?

Brig:  Right, yeah.

Lindsay:      Okay. And you signed up for a program that’s for anyone that doesn’t know what Self-Coaching Scholars is, it’s like a program that coaches kind of each part of your life, there’s like a monthly theme. And so you signed up for that and you decided, “I need to do this for other people.”

Brig:  Yeah, because I looked at programs before but I was like, “Ah, I think this is what I want to do.” And the tummy felt good.

Lindsay:      Did you know then that you really wanted to do this, like that it was really going to be the thing?

Brig:  No, no, no.

Lindsay:      Because you have a good career, you make a lot of money, you like what you do, we’ve talked about this so many times.

Brig:  Right. I love what I do, it’s not even I like what I do, I love what I do. I have two loves.

Lindsay:      And tell them what you do, because I can’t say the word [crosstalk].

Brig:  I can’t say the word even, I’ll do it, you do know that, right? I’m just like, “Please don’t ask me to pronounce it.” So I’m a nurse in emphasis, so I-

Lindsay:      You put people to sleep.

Brig:  People to sleep, most importantly I’ll wake them up, I do the epidurals. I do anything most things anesthesia related and I love it and I work specifically most of the time now, I used to work all of it but most of the time I just work labor and delivery which matches because I just love on the mothers, I just love them. So of course, I coach women, right? Yeah.

Lindsay:      All I know is if I was having surgery, actually I did have surgery a couple months ago and I literally thought of this as they were wheeling me back to the room, I thought, “What’d be like if Brig was here?” I just think that would be so much more fun than what’s about to happen.

Brig:  Right. Oh yeah, you have me singing to you and telling you it’s okay and trying to explain to you and just keep telling them, “I got you, just trust me, I got you. I’m going to take great care of you.” Just hearing that sometimes it’s just the best thing for a patient.

Lindsay:      And instead, I had like some white guy who’s like, “Are you ready?” I was like, “I guess, sure. Let’s do it.” I probably talked about you while I was asleep because I was definitely thinking about you right before my surgery. So tell us, so you have this life that you love but what was the thing when you joined the program to begin with? What was the thing that you were like, obviously you loved what you do. Why did you think I need a coach or I need coaching in my life?

Brig:  Well, like I said, I had a heartbreak and I knew from the heartbreak that it wasn’t the guy, it wasn’t the relationship, it was something I was doing that was keeping me attached. And I was trying all the things, reading all the books. So that’s what coaching did for me was helped me see, “Oh, it’s because I was thinking it shouldn’t be happening. It’s because I was thinking all of the things.” And are you in what reality?”

Brig:  It wasn’t that he was just this fantastic guy but that’s what I made it mean, like I can’t get over it, it must be him. And so I kept going like I’m like, “But no, it’s not, but no it must be because I can’t get over it.” Yeah, my brain was totally circling.

Lindsay:      What you’re saying is you were just being a normal human having thoughts.

Brig:  Right, exactly. Exactly. And when I uncovered the thoughts, it was so transformative for me I was like, “Oh, it’s not him?” Yeah. It wasn’t, it never was. I was like, then I felt control and empowered and then I just started a plan that every other area of my life. Well, what about this? How can I apply it here? And how can apply it here? And just would each area, I just felt a sense of lightness.

Lindsay:      That’s great. I think about this all the time and you and I have talked about this a few times where we have talked about like, “Why we think some people, like what makes a great coach?” And I wouldn’t say this is a 100% true but a lot of the great coaches I know have had this experience where they have adopted coaching in their life and used it to change every piece of their life. Right?

Brig:  Right.

Lindsay:      Which is why they think coaching is so powerful. What are your thoughts about that?

Brig:  Yeah, like totally. I think had I not used coaching and especially like coaching with someone, coaching through all of it. I wouldn’t be so convinced that coaching was it because I’m like, “Yeah, I just got coached.” And I’m like, “Oh wow.” Just that little bit of a turn, like they just change one word and you’re like, “Oh, that makes such the difference.”

Lindsay:      It’s so weird to try to explain it sometimes, right?

Brig:  Right.

Lindsay:      It’s like, “Just the shift happens and my whole body feels different and I feel lighter or sad or whatever,” like whatever the emotion is, but it’s just there and it’s okay and I just know everything’s going to be okay.

Brig:  Right, I think that’s it, is you go, “Oh, I’m not broken. Oh, I’m normal. Oh, it is something I can fix, it’s not me, it’s my thinking, it’s like such a lifeline.”

Lindsay:      Yes. I think as coaches, we do this funny thing where we say all the time like, “I know it’s a thought.” And wouldn’t you say that I don’t even know how to say this, I’m just going to say it and see if you know what I mean but it’s like, we learn to separate our thinking from who we are, like our thinking isn’t us, it’s just a thing that happens because we have a brain.

Brig:  Right, yeah.

Lindsay:      And it’s like, we learn to separate. And sometimes we even say, like, “Well, I was talking to my brain and here’s what is said.” We think about it as something that’s like outside of us.

Brig:  Right, because we see it somehow in other, we see it, we’ve finally realized, “Oh, because you hear all the time, I’m not my thoughts. If you think you can and you think you can’t, either way you’re right.” And you’re like, you give like, “Yeah, I agree with that.” But when you really, really see that on a different level, it’s like, “Oh, I’m not my thought. I don’t have to describe myself like that?” No, you don’t.

Lindsay:      Yes. So good. Okay, so tell me what is your favorite part of being coached?

Brig:  You know what my favorite part of being coached is, and coaches, I think coaches have a point where they get used to, showing up as a client. I’m like, “I’m just going to give you my brain, I’m not going to try to do like coaching myself or like whatever.” I’m like, “Because my brain is all over the place.” So it’s like…

Lindsay:      Yes, it is.

Brig:  My favorite part about being a coach is just being a client, like just getting coached just like, yeah. And this, and then I’m thinking this and I’m thinking this, and let someone else go. “Why are you thinking that?” And you go, “Wait a minute. That’s a thought?”

Lindsay:      Yes. It’s interesting. It’s like interesting being coached as a coach, especially you’ve been a coach for a while, because there is a moment where you realize like, “Oh, I can just let go of all of my thoughts,” that like, “Oh, this is a thought and this is a thought.”

Lindsay:      And instead, I can just, it’s like I always envision taking this huge, like bucket of stuff and just dumping it all out on the table and letting my coach just like, “There you go, sift through it. Go ahead.” What do you find in here? Like what do you think? What about that one? What should we do with all this stuff?

Brig:  Right. It’s like, “Oh, okay. Yeah. I just get to be me.” I think that’s the best part of coaching is when I just get to be me.

Lindsay:      I love it. What are some of the biggest shifts that you’ve had from being coached? That’s like a really big question. I should have…

Brig:  I know, right.

Lindsay:      I should have prepped you, I should’ve sent this one over.

Brig:  Oh my gosh, like which time, so many shifts. Relationship with my mother, relationship with my children, the way I view myself as a mother of adult kids, how I have separated myself from their result, just being able to feel secure regardless of what the stock market is doing or what my retirement account is doing.

Brig:  I think the biggest shift for me was deciding I was a coach and I could coach high-achieving Black women. I think we worked on it for like seven months.

Lindsay:      I think so too.

Brig:  [crosstalk].

Lindsay:      But it’s okay you got there.

Brig:  Right, I got there. I was like, “You mean, I really can’t?”

Lindsay:      The thing for me that was so fun about that, I was like, you knew the whole time that that’s what you wanted to do, you were so clear on it and you just never gave up. It was like, you kept having all these doubts and it kind of going back and forth, like do [inaudible], I’m kind of scared, all the things, but you were so willing to just stay there.

Brig:  Yeah.

Lindsay:      And work through it until one day it was like, “Oh my gosh, hold on. I think I’m a coach for high achieving Black women.” That’s like, “Really?”

Brig:  I know, I know. I tell my clients that when they’re showing up and I was like, “We’re still coaching.” I was like, “It’s okay. I promise you it’s okay.” I literally have been coached on the same thing for seven months, we’re good. Because there’s just this moment like it’s just your process, but it is the willingness to just keep going and like, but I have another thought about it and I have another doubt. And this one really is going to stop me and you’re like, “No.”

Lindsay:      No, it’s not. We’re fine.

Brig:  We’re fine too, we’re fine. Okay.

Lindsay:      Yeah. Okay, so this leads into one thing I see show up for coaches a lot, I hear this so often is they get in their head because they’re in a hurry to get their clients results, they think like, “Oh, I have to, but I have to show her this, I have to be in a hurry, if she doesn’t get these results quickly she’s not going to want to keep working with me, she’s not going to want to rehire me.” What would you say about that? Like what do you think would have happened if I, as your coach had really pushed you to just do it faster?

Brig:  I don’t think I would have gotten the transformation, the resolve, it would have been forced and I probably would have tried it and then looked for evidence of it failing as opposed to knowing it and creating evidence of it succeeding.

Lindsay:      Yeah. What was your experience as the client? What was your experience of me? Like how did it feel for you for me to just allow you to take your time to get there whenever you got there?

Brig:  I think it gave me permission to be where I was, because she was like, “I know I said I’m good.” You would go, “What do you want coaching on?” “I know, I know we said this last week and I said I’m good.” And it was always, “This is not a problem.” Even if you didn’t say the words, it was, “This is not a problem.” It was like, “I got you. Let’s go.”

Lindsay:      Yeah. And we should be pretty clear for the people listening that it’s not like you were doing nothing, you weren’t just like not being a coach, you were already a coach, you were coaching the people, you were assigning clients and doing the thing. You just had not gone all in on who you were working with and really who your ideal clients were. One thing that I talked about on the podcast is learning to really think about your clients and spending time, more time in their brains than you do on your own. Tell me, how do you do that? What techniques do you use to do that?

Brig:  I just pay attention, I listen to my girlfriends with the talk, I listen to… And I just pay attention to even the world as I see it, I’m like, “How am I processing this as a Black woman? What is going through my mind that I don’t even know what’s going through my mind?” That could be a limiting belief that I have to just accept it, because of years and years and years, and years and years?” And like some of the things that we say as a culture like the struggle is real.

Brig:  And I was like just questioning everything like, “Why do we say that? Why do we like the struggle? Why is there has to be a struggle? Why does everything have to be hard?” So I just go into me as a Black woman. And then I just look at shows or whatever and I’m just always questioning. I think you told me, like the best thing we can ever bring to coaching was curiosity.

Lindsay:      What do you think about like when you’re actually on a call with a client in a session with a client, how do you know when you’re not being curious? Like when you’ve stepped out of curiosity, how does that show up for you? Like how do you experience that?

Brig:  It’s like, when I’m like, “Okay, I know, I know what it is.”

Lindsay:      Yeah.

Brig:  But it’s a different because I can know what it is like, “Oh, she’s believing her [inaudible], her results are creating her feelings. That’s a different than, “Yeah. I know the story.” It’s totally different, because one is like, “This is the thought loop area that you’re believing.” And then I’m like curious as to why she’s believing it or curious as to how can I show her that this is a thought loop area, as opposed to, “Yeah, I know what this is and let me just tell her.”

Lindsay:      It’s like the difference between, I think what you’re saying is when you’re being super curious and you’re on a call and you can see, “Oh, of course this is what’s happening because she’s thinking this, she’s feeling this way and it’s creating this result.” But it’s the difference between just saying to your client, of course, you’re thinking this and then this is what’s happening. You can say that and a client can say, “Oh, okay, yeah, I guess I can see that.”

Lindsay:      It’s like the difference between understanding it logically versus understanding it in your bones, like showing a client if you can stay curious and really get them to the point where they’re like, “Oh, okay, I see what you’re saying.”

Brig:  And the funny thing is, is like one of the best gifts you gave me you’re not asking me a question, I’m sorry but I’m going to tell you this anyway.

Lindsay:      Perfect, go for it. Tell me all the things about me go.

Brig:  Right, I know. One of the best gifts you gave me was the gift of me coaching my way, like in my energy with my personality, everything like owning who I was and how I was. And so the funny thing about it is though is because I just did a day of coaching where like, “I may put a pair of glasses on, I may put a hat on, like I have all my little props, I may show them that they’re flogging.” I was like, “You know, of course she doesn’t see it,” and it’s just-

Lindsay:      I wish everyone could see you right now with all the props that you have, this is amazing.

Brig:  I do. It is just my brain is just, you just allow that gift of you can be you Brig and coach, and so when it’s like I’m not just saying, “Oh, your results create the such and such.” I’m like giving them a story with it and then using my props like, imagine this like this is what they believe but this is the judgment, they can’t even get to it because the judgment is there they got to remove the judgment first. You know what I mean?

Lindsay:      We’re going to have to take a video. I’m cracking up. But I think this is so, so good. And this is actually the next thing I talked about on the podcast and I don’t know, maybe episode three was really learning to be you and own who you are when you’re coaching.

Brig:  Yes.

Lindsay:      Why do you think your clients love you for the way you coach?

Brig:  Because it is so authentic and it comes strictly from love, even when I do the other thing which is you tell me, like, “Are you letting them get away with that?” “No, I’m not. Yes, ma’am, no, I’m not.” “You call her out on that.” “Yes, I did.”

Lindsay:      But what I would say about what you just said and the examples you just gave is I think when you can bring some humor and some for you, because that’s who you are, right?

Brig:  Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lindsay:      It takes so much of the heaviness out of it for your clients.

Brig:  Right.

Lindsay:      And it can still be the toughest coaching.

Brig:  Yes.

Lindsay:      It just doesn’t have to feel bad to them.

Brig:  Right, totally.

Lindsay:      Especially when our clients are already hard enough on themselves.

Brig:  Yeah. Mine’s definitely are, like they’re believing all the stories, something’s wrong with me, I’m hard and they’re high achieving people. I was like the last thing they need is another session where like it’s very serious. And we have a problem, we have to do thought work.

Lindsay:      Even if you’re coaching on a serious topic it can still be, it’s okay for it to not be heavy, to not be so serious. And so like, okay, let’s get in there, like we know it’s your thoughts so let’s figure out what they are.

Brig:  Yeah. And even when I do like processing emotions or whatever, when it is that time to be like really compassionate, it still doesn’t have to be this heavy thing, you know?

Lindsay:      Yeah.

Brig:  I think that was one of the gifts you gave me, which was I just get to be myself.

Lindsay:      What else do you do? Is there anything else you can think of in your coaching or just in the way you show up to the coaching relationship that maybe makes you different than other coaches?

Brig:  Oh, I think the fact that I may pick up anything around me, or I may give you any number of analogies and they work, I may pull something out and it’s just never know what it’s going to be. And it’s like, you know how a boxer does this and they do right, right, right, right, and then they do the left up a hook.

Brig:  And my clients are going, “I don’t know where you put, it’s working, like I’m getting it, like I see it.” It’s like instead of just having them think about it, I give them a visual because they’re so triggered where they are. So if I can give them another visual that they can take it and go, “Oh, I see it in something else,” then they just apply it back.

Lindsay:      What about you said something earlier that I want to ask you about, which is, I forget exactly how you said it but something like when your clients are having resistance and it’s kind of fun for you as the coach to just keep like, “How can I say it in a different way? How can I say it in a different way?” What do you think allows you to do that?

Lindsay:      And I’m asking because I know a lot of coaches get so stuck in their head, like during a coaching session they get in their head about like, “Oh, she’s not understanding she’s not seeing it.” What do you believe about coaching or about yourself that really just allows you to do that?

Brig:  I think because I had two or three things that we worked on forever, it was like, “What are we coaching on?” “Well, I have the same issue.” And because it was like seven months, I’m going to bring it back up. I totally know that nothing wrong is happening, so I don’t make it mean anything.

Brig:  And you never made it mean anything about you as my coach like I’m not… I never got the buzz of, I must not be coaching her right, because she’s still not over this. I never got that feeling from you, it was okay. It’s no big deal.

Lindsay:      Shit runs deep. We’re like, “We’re just going to keep working on it. This is not a problem.” This is going to keep going.

Brig:  Right. And so for me it was like, “This is not a problem. Let me see.” And usually for me it was always funny at 3:00, I haven’t done this in a minute I wonder why, but at 3:00 I would get up and it will come to me, like 3:00 in the morning, I would wake up.

Lindsay:      Oh, in the morning?

Brig:  Yeah, 3:00 in the morning if I’m like really thinking about my client and like what? And at 3:00 in the morning, it will come to me like, “Oh, I can explain it this way.”

Lindsay:      So, so good.

Brig:  And I would go into the coaching session and go, “I thought about you last night.”

Lindsay:      At 3:00 AM.

Brig:  3:00 AM. And I was like, and I think like, I want to explain it this way. So it was never, there’s a problem. It’s just, I literally make it my like, “Okay, I’m going to find another way so that you can see that it’s optional or that it’s a thought or that we can clean it up and put it to bed.”

Lindsay:      That is so great. I love the visual of you just like sitting up in bed at 3:00 AM. Although, sometimes you’re awake at 3:00 AM at wherever the surgery center or hospital, wherever you are.

Brig:  Yeah, for sure.

Lindsay:      But I’m assuming you mean when you’re in bed sleeping and you wake up at 3:00 AM, I know what to say.

Brig:  That’s my time like I don’t know if that’s where my brain has gone, like all the junk is out now because you know, our brain does clear out all this junk while we’re sleeping. So at 3:00 it’s like, I have fresh… I can think about this now.

Lindsay:      It’s like when your reboot finishes every night like, you’re just-

Brig:  Yes, it’s about reboot, yeah.

Lindsay:      If my husband listens to this, he will appreciate it so much because every time he’s like, “Oh, did you restart the computer?” He’s an IT, every time something goes wrong and I get so frustrated and I want to throw the computer out the window he always says, “Did you turn it off and turn it back on?” And he’s literally right every time and it’s so annoying, but it’s kind of the same thing.

Lindsay:      It’s like your brain turned off, turned back on, it has a fresh perspective but the best part is you don’t make it mean anything about you, you’re just like, “Oh, now I’m going to go tell her.”

Brig:  Yeah, and those usually come through for me, I’m like, “Yeah, like…”

Lindsay:      They nailed it.

Brig:  They nailed it. But I just love the fact that I really do hold a container for my clients, a space for them to just be where they are and I’m in there with them like I don’t think they’re in a ring alone, I’m with you. Let’s go.

Lindsay:      Yeah. What do you think about thoughts? Like thoughts that we have that we work through that tend to just keep showing up. So like, “Well, we think we worked on them,” and then six months later, it’s like, “Oh,” or the next day or the next day or whatever, but where we really do think like, “Oh, I’ve worked through this and I’m on the other side of it.”

Lindsay:      And then we realize when we’re working on whatever it is that we’re doing again. So like in my business, for example, I just always have this recurring thought like, “Oh, I’m so far behind,” and it’s still there, I’m going to make half a million dollars. My brain still tells me I’m far behind.

Lindsay:      What are your thoughts about that as a coach? Because I see a lot of people, a lot of like coaches that I work with, they get very tripped up by this because they think like, “Oh, we already worked through this. Like, why would this come up for her again? Or why is it coming up for them again?”

Brig:  I had a lady today, it’s exactly what it was. It was, “I want to start this new business and I have these thoughts, I’ve never done it before. I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m broking, something’s wrong with me. I’m behind.” And she just gave me a whole litany of thoughts and I just looked at her and she was like, “What’s wrong?” I was like, So tell me what the problem is.” You’re having thoughts like our brain because she was a coach. So I was like, “I know you’ve coached on every last one of these thoughts individually, so you already know you’ve done your work on it.” It’s like, we think that the thoughts stop coming. It’s like, they’re involuntary.

Brig:  It’s not like you decided you were going to have the thoughts, thoughts are involuntary, they come and we don’t have to make them mean anything. It’s just like, “Oh, there’s that practice thought again.” Of course, you’re coming back, yeah.

Lindsay:      I love it. The way my new thing that I tell myself every time I notice that thought I’m like, “Oh yeah, that’s just part of my process. There it is.”

Brig:  There it is. That’s my pattern. I just love that too about coaching, it’s like we allow our clients to figure out their pattern and not somebody else’s pattern, not my pattern, but their pattern. You know this is what you do, I think that’s one of the values of working with a coach over the long period of time is because like you would tell me when you and I were coaching, you would tell me, “You know Brig that’s the same thought, just dressed up, like disguise.” And like the way I would do it is like, “Oh, it’s the same thought.” With these crazy glasses on, they put the glasses on, it’s like, “You know that’s the same thought.” The thought just decided like, “Oh, I’m going to sneak in this way.”

Lindsay:      Yeah, I mostly thought, thoughts are tricky, they’re like, “I’m going to change clothes and come back and you’re not going to recognize me this time. I’m going to get in there.” Do you find that you have thoughts? Like, do you know what yours are, your super practice thoughts that just show up?

Brig:  Yeah. My super practice thought is like, don’t show up too big, don’t get too big for your bridges. That is one that is common for me and a lot of my clients because Black women culturally have been told not to outshine anybody. And so it’s like, “Dim your light, wait a minute, like flicker, and then go back and dim.” So mindset’s a reoccurring one for me, it’s like, “Ah, damn, yeah.”

Lindsay:      Listen, I want to go back in your life and just beat up anyone who told you to dim your light.

Brig:  I know right.

Lindsay:      I mean you know me, I’m pretty scary, so that would probably-

Brig:  Yeah, totally. Totally.

Lindsay:      So now when you notice it, what do you do with it when you notice that thought, when it comes up…

Brig:  My process it’s like, “Oh, the scary music is coming on.” Because I feel it and I’m like, “Oh, there’s the scary music, dim, dim.” And I just remind myself, it’s just a plant that dropped and it’s just your practice thought.

Brig:  It’s okay, we’re good. You’re not going to get kicked off the island, like I literally just go to myself and comfort myself as opposed to yelling at it and screaming at it. Like, “You shouldn’t be here, I can’t believe you’re here,” or like resisting it like, “No, I don’t want to hear the music. I don’t want to hear the music.” It’s literally. Yeah, this is just it’s okay and I comfort it.

Lindsay:      That’s so good. What do you need to know so that you can feel better?

Brig:  I don’t call it my inner critic anymore, I call it my inner QT because it’s just wanting attention, it’s just really trying to protect me.

Lindsay:      Of course.

Brig:  Yeah, so from that point of view, I go and address it and like, “What does it need? What do you need?”

Lindsay:      Love that. I just love you so much.

Brig:  Well, you know it’s likewise.

Lindsay:      It’s so fun talking about these things, it’s so fun talking about these things with you from the perspective of your coaching and your coaching with your clients because we worked together for so long and I know that that’s your thought that we coached on so many different times. And it’s the same reason you were afraid to go all in on your niche but it’s so beautiful now being on the other side of it and now just considering myself your good friend and your colleague and it was just so fun thinking of myself as your friend and as your colleague and just hearing you say these things from the perspective of, “Yup, that that’s just there and it’s okay, and I love myself anyway.”

Lindsay:      And then watching you kill it and grow your business and do all the things that I knew were so, that you committed and worked through so hard. I mean, you were like, this is happening, I’m making it happen. I’m just going to like wait through all the shit first so I can get there.

Brig:  Yeah, I think that’s one of the reasons why I’m a good coach because it’s like, “Yeah. This way through it, let’s go,” I’m committed, “You want to do this? Let’s do it,” like totally.

Lindsay:      So I know there are a lot of coaches, coaches learned to coach in different ways, some coaches work with a coach for a long time, some coaches go straight to a certification program. I say all the time, there’s no right or wrong, it’s all amazing, the world needs so many coaches and every kind of coach. What would you say to a coach who has never worked with a one-on-one coach? Like what would your advice be to them as far as like how do you think that affects your business?

Brig:  I think for me, I like my thought, I’ve done my work on it.

Lindsay:      And again, there is no right or wrong.

Brig:  There’s no right or wrong but I think for me having a one-on-one definitely showed me the value of coaching and it helped me just be that coach, because it’s like, not every last one of our coaching calls were like transformative and amazing. And then but knowing like if I looked back, I was like, “Wow, we did some amazing work together,” and all of it was part of the process.

Brig:  So then that allows me to just be like, oh no, every call doesn’t have to be like, we work on the littlest of things. And those littlest of things actually build to be this huge transformation when you put it all together but that is the process. So when you’re a client, you see it. And then when you’re a coach you’re like, “Oh totally, totally normal.”

Brig:  And I just think it helps me sell coaching so much more because I’m like, “I know the value of it. I know what I’m selling you is worth way more than I’m asking you, way more than I’m asking you.”

Lindsay:      Yeah. We’ll talk about that later, you need some coaching on that. What do you think is the difference between that and then being in maybe like a mastermind or a group coaching program? They’re both amazing, they create results from both. What do you think is the difference? Like how does that help you in a different way? And how does it help you be a great coach?

Brig:  I think the mastermind was beautiful because you know you’re not the only one, like you get to see other people go through their shit and you’re like, “Oh, she’s got the same shit as I got,” like, “Oh.” And so you get to learn from other people’s stuff and the way they process stuff, and you’re like, “Oh, I never even thought about it that way.”

Brig:  So it’s like, I’m not different, there’s nothing special about me. I’m not the special snowflake that we all think we are, but you don’t understand my problem is different, like you understand that on a greater level in a mastermind and it’s the collective, I think that’s the value of a mastermind, it’s like it’s the collective energy and you’re like all in it together. I think one-on-one, I think you get to go a little bit deeper and it’s catered specifically to you.

Brig:  This is the thing and it’s like, you get to go deeper with this. And a mastermind. You can’t necessarily like bring your coaching on that same thing again.

Lindsay:      Right. Nope. Not today, Brig.

Brig:  Right, “What you want to get coached on?” “You know my neighbor down the street?” “Nope.”

Lindsay:      No, not today.

Brig:  [crosstalk], we’ve already handled that. But on a one-on-one coach it’s like, “What do you want to coach on?” “I want to coach my neighbor.” “Okay. Let’s coach on it.”

Lindsay:      Yup, so good. That’s so true. I remember the first time I was in… I don’t know if it was actually the first mastermind, but it was the first like kind of serious business mastermind that I was in and I remember the feeling in my body when I heard people saying my thoughts out loud, I was like, “What? How do you know? You have those thoughts? Hold on.” That’s crazy because for sure I thought I was special and I was the only one in the world with this crazy brain.

Lindsay:      And so yeah, I totally agree. I think that, that is one of the most powerful things about a mastermind. What about your coaching? Are you going to launch a mastermind sometime?

Brig:  You know I was hoping that after this we could get a little coaching in, I’m just kidding.

Lindsay:      But probably yes, right?

Brig:  But probably yes. I’m thinking about launching a mastermind, but right now I still went on one, but it is definitely I’m like the pieces are starting to come together. I’m like, “Oh, I can put this in,” like it’s starting to really come together as far as what I think my ideal client, with the journey that I would like to take them on to get to like where… Because I’m coaching so many of them now, I think that’s the beauty of it, it’s like I’m like doctors and dentists and PhD.

Brig:  And it’s like, “Oh, I’m seeing all the common things and I’ve recording and listening.” And I’m like, “Oh, this is some good stuff.” That’s when I know I’m like, “Oh, this is some good stuff.” Yeah, so mastermind may be coming up.

Lindsay:      I can’t wait, I just know… Here’s what I envision when I think about your mastermind. I envision a room full of the most badass women you could ever meet, like that’s literally what I picture is just like the power in that mastermind is going to be crazy, which is why I feel pretty excited for you to have one.

Brig:  I know, I know, I know, I know. I do want to, I don’t know how much time we have left but at some point I want to talk about like the fact that you and I coach during the time of George Floyd and you helped me so much go through all of the racial strife that we had, and you were a white coach and I was a Black woman coming to you with my shit. And the power of coaching cross-cultural coaching and what that took for both of us to be able to do that.

Lindsay:      Yeah, let’s talk about it, I’m going to let you lead this because what would you love to say about that?

Brig:  I just would love to say that I think the openness that we both had was the thing that helped us in that and it is, for me as a Black woman which was to be able to share my story and my shame and all the thoughts about that, and be okay with risking you not understanding and risking you like saying something that I would interpret in a way that wouldn’t serve me, but being willing to risk that because I wanted to work on it. And I don’t know about you, but how you thought about it.

Lindsay:      Yeah. I think from my perspective. So first, what you’re talking about is I was your one-on-one coach at the time and…

Brig:  I love how you always explained my brain.

Lindsay:      I just want to make sure we’re so close, it’s like, they’re just listening in on this private conversation and I want to make sure they know what we’re talking about, but I was your one-on-one coach at the time and you were having as, was I, as was most of the world having lots of strong emotions and really working through. And what was so fascinating about it also was at the same time this was the time that you were just about to really step into your niche.

Brig:  Right, I had been working on it forever.

Lindsay:      You’ve been working on it forever and it was like it was right there, and then the world caught on fire and you were like, “Oh my gosh,” like it literally brought up every single fear you had about fully stepping into that niche to begin with.

Lindsay:      And so I think that’s kind of where we started when we started coaching on it, and then it just really turned into this beautiful, just like open coaching on all of your thoughts about being a Black woman, about being Black in this country, like all of the things. And from my perspective, I have to tell you that every single time you brought me anything like that, literally all I felt was just so much gratitude. Like every time I just thought, “I cannot believe she trusts me enough to let me coach her on this.”

Brig:  Right, and I think that’s something that culturally Black women, we usually go to our own in order to do that and that’s why I love giving that option to my clients but not sometimes you’re with a coach who is of a different culture. And at some point we just have to trust the process and be vulnerable, they may or may not understand but to create that container for it.

Lindsay:      Yeah. I think one of the things that I use the most to bring it back to something we talked about earlier is I would just notice every time, because sometimes we were talking about things that were very emotionally charged and it was a little tricky for me to stay in a neutral, emotional state. Because of course, partially because we’re so close, and so I have feelings about you anytime I found myself in my head, what I would use is like always bringing it back to curiosity.

Lindsay:      And just staying in such a place of like, “Okay, what’s it? What’s just the another question I could ask about this?” And the way I would really think about it is like, we’re just exploring this, we’re not trying to get to any certain conclusion, I’m not trying to convince you that these are just thoughts like none of that, it was just like, “We’re just going to take a walk around inside your brain and like really dig out all the cobwebs and all of the corners about this topic.” That really it’s no different than coaching on any other topic but in that moment it did really feel like this is a big thing.

Brig:  Yeah. It was, it was, I did feel that way.

Lindsay:      And I was so proud of you to be brave enough to really bring me on, and you did not hold anything back and you didn’t hesitate to go there. And I really think because you were so committed to working on that, it was the thing that finally got you on the other side of all the niche drama.

Brig:  Yeah, I think so because it was like shortly after that, that I just literally stepped in and was like, “Okay, let’s go.”

Lindsay:      And it felt for me watching you, it was almost like at that point, it was like, you had to. You finally did your last piece of work that you needed to do on it and then it was like, at least my impression was you felt-

Brig:  Compelled.

Lindsay:      Compelled, right. So like, “Oh, now I have to help my people, I have to help these women, they’re waiting for me.”

Brig:  Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Lindsay:      I would say, I don’t know if I’ve ever been more proud as a coach of one of my clients, like in all of my coaching because it was just such a beautiful thing to watch you work so hard on it, and then to get on the other side of it and watch you just go nail it, it’s so fun. How are you feeling about it now? Is that something that comes up for you still?

Brig:  I think it’s just, some of it is old programming, it’s like you watch the thoughts or whatever, but no, like I feel amazing in my niche. Yeah, it was like, “Oh, there’s that thought again.” It’s like that thing, like oh there’s a thought, of course you’re coming back today. Okay, take a seat please.

Lindsay:      But you know you’ve really committed to like these are my people and I love coaching them.

Brig:  Yes. I just feel like this week is like, oh, I create containers for Black women to grow and just flourish and shed the old and put on the new. It’s like the pit stop, it’s like, “I’m going to get new tires when such, such…” And then go out there and like kick butt, I love it. I seriously get like giddy thinking about your business and the women that you help and the future of your business like I can see it so clearly. I’ll tell you later, whatever you need help with, whatever you need coaching on. We’ve got to get through that so you can create this thing that I’m envisioning.

Lindsay:      Yes, totally, totally. Okay, so I don’t want to take up too much more of your time but I would love for you… Two things I want to cover, so you were my one-on-one client, you were also in my Coaching Masters Mastermind. When this podcast launches, the mastermind will be, I’ll be selling it again in January. So I would love to just hear what you, if someone’s on the fence of like, “Should I join the mastermind? Should I not?” What are your thoughts about it?

Lindsay:      And then last, I want you to tell people exactly how they can find you, how they can work with you, only have a couple spots left, they know that at least for a while, so they better get on it. So start with whichever one you want.

Brig:  Okay. Well, first of all, the mastermind, your mastermind is so good helping coaches, I think there’s just something about a mastermind of other coaches even like that same thing that we was talking about like, “Oh, you experienced that too.” Like, “Oh you.” Because we think, “Oh, it’s because I’m not a good coach,” and all the stories that we tell ourselves or you have bad clients too and really, oh, there’s no such thing as a bad client or a difficult client.

Brig:  Oh my God, like all of the work that you do really helping us get to neutral, just all the little tricks within a mastermind and you’re seeing other people struggle too, it’s so much helps that you’re like, “Oh, I’m normal.” Like once again I’m not broken, I’m normal. I’m a coach who’s happens to be a human being. “Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah.”

Brig:  So if you’re on the fence, I think it’s just a wonderful opportunity to get with like-minded coaches develop your skills because if you’re a coach, you want to be like, I know I’m an amazing coach. I know that I noted in my bones, but I know that because I’ve also worked on it, I put the work in it but it’s just a thought too. And it’s a thought I’d love to have.

Brig:  So as far as the working with me, I’m Brig Johnson. You can go to brigjohnson.com, love it. And sign up for a one-on-one breakthrough call. I just went break. I was like, what else? Instagram, you can follow me, JohnsonBrig on Instagram and Brig Johnson Coaching on Facebook.

Lindsay:      I feel like you’re just leaving something else out that we haven’t even mentioned yet.

Brig:  Oh, I have a podcast.

Lindsay:      What? You have 12 jobs, you’re getting master coach certified, you have 47 clients, I don’t even know how many…

Brig:  Right, yes.

Lindsay:      There you go, but you have a lot of clients, all of this, and you just launched a podcast.

Brig:  Yes, I did just launch a podcast.

Lindsay:      What is it called?

Brig:  Breakthrough with Brig. You can find it on all the platforms too, so-

Lindsay:      Breakthrough with Brig, go listen.

Brig:  Yeah, I’m on episode seven.

Lindsay:      I don’t know if I’ve told you but I have listened.

Brig:  Oh you have.

Lindsay:      And it is fantastic.

Brig:  Oh no.

Lindsay:      I mean, if there’s anything in the world that makes me want to be a Black woman so I can work with you.

Brig:  I know every once in a while I’ll get a whisper or a little email message, “Do you work with…?” I’m like, “Yes, honey.” If you can write that message, come on, come on.

Lindsay:      I love that.

Brig:  You can write that message until I go mastermind or whatever, one-on-one, yeah, but yeah we’re good.

Lindsay:      So you’re telling me there’s a chance?

Brig:  There’s a chance.

Lindsay:      Okay. I love it. So thank you so much. Is there anything else? Did we leave anything out? I feel like we could just talk for hours and hours and hours-

Brig:  I know.

Lindsay:      … about all the things, but is there anything else that you wanted to say that I didn’t ask you?

Brig:  Yeah, like I miss you. Just like that.

Lindsay:      I miss you and I’m so grateful that you are here today.

Brig:  Do you want to tell them that I sent you the song Lost Without You?

Lindsay:      Yes. Yes, she did and it was amazing. And at first I was a little bit confused and I was like, “Why is he in it?” Because like I was watching the video and I was like, “Oh, is she like sad? She doesn’t have a guy right now, like what’s happening?” And then you sent a message after it that said, “I don’t know how I’m feeling about you right now,” or something like that. And I was like crying, I was laughing so hard.

Brig:  Yes, and that’s the beauty of coaching, that we have those type of relationships. So yeah, that’s why they need to come to your mastermind so they can develop those types of relationships. Coaching opportunities.

Lindsay:      Yes. I love my clients so deeply and I don’t know, I think some coaches are like, “You must feel very neutral about all of your clients,” and guess what? I just don’t, I love all of you but especially you.

Brig:  Okay, me too.

Lindsay:      All right. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as we did. We had a lot of fun and I am just so grateful to Brig that she said yes to be here today. If you loved her as much as I do, please go to my show notes, find her information, look up what she does, all the things they will all be in the show notes.

Lindsay:      And for those of you that are sending me messages asking me when my next round of mastermind is starting, it is launching and enrolling in January. So it’s coming very soon. If you are interested, please make sure that you are on my mailing list, those are the first people that will know the exact date. And of course I will keep you guys updated here as well.

Lindsay:      Thank you so much for listening today. Happy holidays. Merry Christmas, all of the things, whatever it is that you’re celebrating this week, Happy New Year. And I will talk to you next week.

Lindsay:      Thanks for listening to this episode of Mastering Coaching Skills. If you want to learn more about my work, come visit me at lindsaydotzlafcoaching.com. That’s Lindsay with an A, D-O-T-Z-L-A-F dot com. See you next week.